Obama inspires us learn another language. What has Bush inspired?

sorry about that last post. my point was/is: Obama encourages educating oneself, a positive thing. Good for him etc. Bush has inspired/encouraged Americans to... what?

But the last motivation I'm going to have for [learning spanish] is to impress foreign tourists.

Kerry,

You obviously don't get Obama's point...as usual. There is alot more to learning a language than impressing tourists. In fact your comment comes across to me rather like some hick saying "I don't need no book learning".

Learning a language not only increases your knowledge, it makes you more employable..especially if you plan to work in a global economy. People in America bitch and moan about not being able to find jobs, or outsourcing, but you better believe if you had a good grasp of Arabic, Hindi, or Chinese along with a good skill you wouldn't have any trouble finding a job. In fact one of the reasons India is so threatening to you now, is because it has a population that can speak and understand English just as well as you. Which means they are just as eligible for your job as you are. And the Chinese aren't far behind.

So maybe you should learn something from the Chinese and the Indians, and start looking learning a second language as less of a parlor trick and more as a doorway to greater opportunity for you and your family.

Kerry,

And Obama is quite right telling us what we need to know rather than what we want to hear. Multi-lingualism will only increase America's competitiveness, not lessen it. And I'd say in world where Europeans know on average 3+ languages, the Indians/Chinese two or more, we are only painting ourselves into a non-competitive box maintaining our arrogance that English will always be the dominate language of the global economy.

OBVIOUSLY (and not surprisingly) ahmanrah has once again missed what the problem is and has gone off on an irrelevant tangent of personal betterment.

The problem is that Obama is advocating for US to learn Spanish to placate southern border immigrants and criminaliens....by having US learn an economically lesser language, from a prosperous global perspective.

....all to garner the Spanish speaking vote, legal or not.

If Obama was serious about Americans learning a second language to benefit themselves in a marketable-skill world, he'd advocate learning what Chinese, Japanese, Thai, or Hindi..........the economically growing countries that th eworld is going to be doing more business with.

...but politicians GOTTA pander for them votes.....

REALLY......who exactly do I need to do ANY businees with that ONLY speaks Spanish???

Anwer: someone making less than minimum wage.

Pass.....

economically lesser language, from a prosperous global perspective.

LOL! I guess you haven't been paying very close attention to the stock market the last few years. When it comes to economic growth Latin America has been kicking our ass. Only an idiot dismisses in a instant the importance that might come from knowing the third most widely spoken language on Earth.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=ILF&t=my&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=%5EGSPC

Sarge,

And if you can't read that chart. Here is a translation.

If you'd bought the S&P 500 in 2003, it would have gone up maybe 20%, where as if you'd purchased the 40 largest Latin-based companies, the Latin DOW if you like, you would have made as much as 600% before this little melt down. But even then you'd still have about 500% in your pocket. Oh yah, keep on ignoring those economically "inferior" spanish.

English is undoubtedly the most useful language to be able to speak from a worldwide point of view, but there are other important ones. Most notably Spanish and French - the reason being these were the most successful colonial nations. Knowing English, Spanish and French will allow you to communicate with everyone in North and South America (bar Bazil), the vast majority of Africa, huge chunks of Europe, all of Austrailasia and a lot of Asia.

If you want to deal with other areas you might find you're better off learning another language like Russian or German in eastern Europe for example. I wouldn't bother with Hindi or any other Indian language there are far to many bilingual English Hindi speakers to make it worth your while. While Mandarin is spoken by many millions of people doing business with them can prove difficult - still I suspect as an American knowing Mandarin you'd be popular to US companies who'd trust you more than a translator.

English speakers are notoriously lazy in speaking other languages for two reasons. First they don't need to because much of the world already speaks English and second because English is quite a quirky langauge. The second reason means that we aren't used to giving gender to words like other langauages do or using tonal inflextions to form words like oriental languages do etc etc. Whereas other nationalities are prepared to put the extra effort in to learn English, English speakers don't bother because they know they already speak the most dominent language.

I think the tide will definately turn towards Asia over the next 50-100 years in terms of economic strenght, but the triple lock of English Emperialism, American cultural empirialism and the information age occuring now has put English in a very strong position to be the linguafranca for the world.

Obama's reasons for making these comments I can't comment on but I suspect they are less malign that Kerry spins then as even if I do agree that their primary motive is votes in the short term rather than any higher motive.

The Right in the USA doesn't want to learn/speak Spanish because in the Western Hemisphere, the working class is primarily Spanish speaking. The Right doesn't want to associate with those they've decided are beneath them.

Plus, in order to conserve the long history of racism in the USA, the Right-wing is in favor of keeping the USA white and English-speaking. If all the white folks in the USA start speaking (or even respecting) the Spanish language, then that's one step closer to the white and Hispanic cultures fraternizing, working together and (gasp!) having children together.

The 21st Century Republican Party is simply the KKK writ large: Right-wing, Christian, racist, paranoid, militant, and terrified that non-white Americans might get some respect.

Art,

The Latin America "tiger" is going to be a little harder for the US to brush off, when Carlos Slim (a Mexican) becomes the richest man in the work...probably some time in 2008. He is already #2, ahead of Bill Gates. And made the majority of his money from a Mexican telecom company...imagine that there is money to be made in Mexico.

richest man in the world, not work.

Gee ahmanrah.....and there's so much economic wealth going on in Latin America that all them criminaliens are going back from where they came from due to all them jobs, eh?

Latin America will flounder about some in their internal markets, but India and China and the rest of Asia are the economies to keep an eye on. Gee.....out of the $3.33 Trillion of ALL L.A. GDP....Brazil has $1.3 trillion of it......so 40% of those in Latin America that I would do business with speak.....PORTUGUESE, not Spanish.......dumbass.

MEANWHILE, China has a GDP of $3.2 trillion all by itself.......a GDP of the ENTIRE Latin America all by itself. Add India and You've got $4.3 trillion........and growing.

.....ad numeram arguments go nowhere. Who cares if 1/3 of the world speaks Spanish? I should aspire to be part of the THIRD world, eh?

YA almost had something to say.

Who EXACTLY do I need to speak with that only speaks spanish?

"The Right in the USA doesn't want to learn/speak Spanish because in the Western Hemisphere, the working class is primarily Spanish speaking. The Right doesn't want to associate with those they've decided are beneath them."

I don't think so. I think we would think of Obama as an a-hole (though both black AND white) if he'd said to learn Chinese or Arabic or French or Esperanto. (And, by the way, he said he was "embarrassed" by us because foreigners come here and they speak "English," "French," and "German."--not because they don't speak "Spanish.") Hey, Barack. Do you think they might speak those languages because they're FROM THOSE COUNTRIES? How come you aren't impressed that we go to other countries and SPEAK ENGLISH?

So why is it he wants US to speak SPANISH?

"Plus, in order to conserve the long history of racism in the USA, the Right-wing is in favor of keeping the USA white and English-speaking."

No, not white. But it sure makes sense to speak English. After all, SO DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD. The Spanish-speakers he's talking about aren't learning French and German, are they? Why shouldn't THEY learn English? After all, those Europeans he's so proud of did, didn't they? How come he's not chiding the French or the German for not learning SPANISH?

It just makes him sound like 1) a stuck-up elitist, Harvard-trained Europhile for lauding people who speak French and German; and 2) a pandering politician jonesing for Hispanic votes, telling new (read: mostly illegal) immmigrants they don't have to become "Americans" after all.

And, yeah, it irritates real Americans, who have come from all over the world and bent over backwards to fit into THIS culture to become Americans--including by learning English.

You think the Russians and the Chinese and the Latvians and the Irish and the Germans wouldn't have liked to just have the rest of the country cater to them and learn THEIR languages? Maybe so. But that would have kept them aliens, not citizens. When you join something-like become a citizen of a nation--you do things to make you one of them. You embrace what makes the group what it is. And one of the things that makes Americans Americans is they SPEAK ENGLISH.

"If all the white folks in the USA start speaking (or even respecting) the Spanish language, then that's one step closer to the white and Hispanic cultures fraternizing, working together and (gasp!) having children together."

That's race-baiting nonsense, and you know it. Americans speak ENGLISH. If you want to come here, you become an AMERICAN. And nobody cares if you have children with people from other countries. But until you speak the language and become a citizen, you're not an American--you're still "Bob's Korean wife."

"The 21st Century Republican Party is simply the KKK writ large: Right-wing, Christian, racist, paranoid, militant, and terrified that non-white Americans might get some respect."

I remind you again. Democrats founded the KKK. The Democratic party ran the KKK for half a century, allowed it to flourish, and used it as a political stepping-stone into the good-old-boys' network. The KKK is not a Republican institution. It belongs--lock stock, and double-barrels--to the Democratic party.

"The Latin America "tiger" is going to be a little harder for the US to brush off, when Carlos Slim (a Mexican) becomes the richest man in the work...probably some time in 2008. He is already #2, ahead of Bill Gates. And made the majority of his money from a Mexican telecom company...imagine that there is money to be made in Mexico."

There's always money to be made in a con like the telecom bubble.

"richest man in the world, not work."

Maybe so, but he probably did some work to get there.

By the way, am I supposed to be impressed that he is rich and Mexican? Does that automatically mean all Mexicans are rich?

Quick, tell single black women--Oprah makes you the richest people in America! Yay for you!

"Who EXACTLY do I need to speak with that only speaks spanish?"

I don't know, but they must be on Barack Obama's staff.

Hiya Kerry,

I don't think so. I think we would think of Obama as an a-hole (though both black AND white) if he'd said to learn Chinese or Arabic or French or Esperanto. (And, by the way, he said he was "embarrassed" by us because foreigners come here and they speak "English," "French," and "German."--not because they don't speak "Spanish.") Hey, Barack. Do you think they might speak those languages because they're FROM THOSE COUNTRIES? How come you aren't impressed that we go to other countries and SPEAK ENGLISH?

Actually many Europeans do speak more than their own language. It's very easy to go around many parts of Europe and speak English. I went east Berlin soon after the wall came down and it was a real shock to be somewhere where people didn't speak English at all.

The only people worse at foreign languages than the British are the Irish and the Portuguese (no idea why they can't be arsed to learn other languages).

You think the Russians and the Chinese and the Latvians and the Irish and the Germans wouldn't have liked to just have the rest of the country cater to them and learn THEIR languages?

The Irish spoke English even then - English Imperialism again.

"I remind you again. Democrats founded the KKK. The Democratic party ran the KKK for half a century, allowed it to flourish, and used it as a political stepping-stone into the good-old-boys' network. The KKK is not a Republican institution. It belongs--lock stock, and double-barrels--to the Democratic party."

Actually, the KKK belongs lock stock and double barrels to southern christian conservatives. Their party affiliation has changed over time.

Or are you going to tell me that Joe KKK of today will be voting Democrat this fall, Kerry?

yeah no kidding, tell us all about how Liberal the KKK is/was. Knock yourself out, crack an egg of knowledge all over us.

Art,

Kerry has a habit when it comes to the south, to fall back on party labels, rather than the ideology..even though she know that ideology is what the problem is, not the party the person aligns themselves with.

When you join something-like become a citizen of a nation--you do things to make you one of them. You embrace what makes the group what it is. And one of the things that makes Americans Americans is they SPEAK ENGLISH.

So many red herrings here. It may be a good idea to learn other languages, but that has nothing to do with whether or not we mandate English as the official language. It's not racist, it just makes it easier for everyone to talk to one another (otherwise, why bother belonging to the same nation?), and it puts the onus of understanding on the visitor, not the host nation. Many many nations around this planet have an official language, with government documents in that language -- even some of those Western European nations that we all love so much. And surely such outposts of liberalism could never be racist? Right?

Why do you guys have to be bozos and make me agree with Kerry?

SF,

Basically because I don't think its really necessary. English is the defacto official language. We don't need to codify it into law, and the only reason people are trying is because they think it will some how help preserve their ideal of America. But none of us Kerry included can stop America from changing in the future. Kerry thinks people should fit into some ideal of America that she has in her head, but along the way of molding into the American ideal, new immigrants always change the mold. It was the same way with every major immigrant population.

Its also a fallacy on Kerry's part to assume that all past immigrants willingly became her idea of an American, but the Hispanics are somehow stubborn. But this isn't true. All through history, from the Irish and Italians, to the Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese, there have always been a few generations that kept to themselves and didn't learn English at all, or at most a few words.

America is a melting pot, and each successive wave of immigrants brings something new. And the power of America is we accept them for who they are, rather than try and pidgin hole them into some ideal they will never be.

English is the defacto official language. We don't need to codify it into law

It is, and we won't shrivel up and die if we don't, but that's not the point. The point is that it's easier to keep track of things if we only have to print documents in one language. Since there are legal requirements that every document is readable in every language, and you have to get interpreters when someone speaking West Swahili shows up at the DMV, it has an impact.

More importantly, it's symbolic of the fact that we all want to be on the same page. It doesn't actually make sense to have a country where people don't speak the same language. If we don't share a language, we can't share culture very easily. And if we can't share culture, why share a government? The idea should be that if you want to come to America and join our society, you have to make yourself reasonably compatible.

I think the deal here is that liberals will bend over backwards to accommodate pretty much any special need. They will go so far to avoid being thought of as racist that this is a perfect cover for the knee-jerk. Frankly, I find it all tiresome. Forget the accusations of racism and whatever-ism, and just think about what's practical.

the only reason people are trying is because they think it will some how help preserve their ideal of America

Well, that doesn't describe me. Regardless of some of the motives of some of the supporters, why not consider an idea on its own merits? If a white supremist says the sky is blue and thus black people are bad, well, I'll still have to agree with the first part of his statement.

SF,

I find this kind of funny. Because Conservatives say they don't like to force anything on people. In fact Kerry cringes when I suggest we start mandating more efficient light bulbs be used by consumers, instead of letting the market take care of it, as she thinks it will. Well I say let the market take care of the language problem as well. You can't get a good job in the US if you don't have a good command of the English language. So if the market is as efficient as Kerry would have us believe, the market will ultimately force people who want a better life to get with the program. My point, if the market takes care of everything, we shouldn't have to force people to do anything...including learning English, because they will do it for their own well being.

SF,

And I suspect if you look hard enough at Europe, you will find that they can't get away from printing alot of things in 3 or 4 different languages. Especially when it comes to consumer products, because they live with reality that in an area half or 3/4 of size of the US there are dozens of countries all with their own languages and cultures. And if they want to do business with the all, they have to adapt to reality.

Everybody assumes that American products with Spanish written on the side of them are simply there as a cop-out to all the Spanish speakers here in the US, while forgetting that we have millions of Spanish speakers, and to a lesser degree French speakers right on our borders. And companies save time and money packing products that can ship to a dozen different countries in North America and not just one.

Oh and personally I think we need to help those who come to this country who have valuable skills, but don't necessarily arrive with perfect English flowing from their lips. Should the West Swahili guy have to know English to get a license? Not all residents in the US are citizens. Some have only been here a few months. Should they have to walk until they get a good command of English? Now granted I think the guy should have the wherewithall to bring someone that can help him, but I don't think we can just turn away everybody who comes to America and doesn't know English. Whether they are merely a tourist or interested in becoming a citizen they still should be treated decently, and we should extend them help when we can. But its a bit ridiculous to assume they should know perfect English before they show up on our doorstep.

Trust me if a guy with the brains of Einstein showed up on are doorstep, and didn't know English to save his life...we'd be a fool to turn him away. And the same goes for alot of brainy foreigners showing up in our country every day.

Lets make laws that make sense, not those that are made out of some nebulous xenophobic fear.

And I suspect if you look hard enough at Europe, you will find that they can't get away from printing alot of things in 3 or 4 different languages. Especially when it comes to consumer products, because they live with reality that in an area half or 3/4 of size of the US there are dozens of countries all with their own languages and cultures. And if they want to do business with the all, they have to adapt to reality.

First things I picked up

Tonic Water Pepper DVD Mayonnaise Cigarettes Milk Spring Water Wine (Argentinian)

All with English only on the labels

I worked for 10 years for a company that taught languages and now work for local government. We have to produce all our services in many different languages and have a translation service in-house. Personally I think it's a complete waste of time (and money) providing many different languages. If someone wants to access services I think they should learn the language. I'm more than happy for government to help teach people English particularly if they come to the UK as refuges, but if someone choose to move here I'd say they should learn the language.

Bugger - sorry about the crap blockquotes

Just had a bath

Shampoo - all English Shower Gel - 13 languages

WB,

An totally agree it should be encourage, and theoretically we shouldn't have to worry about people learning it, because that is how they will get ahead in America or Britain, but I think its a bit silly to require everyone coming to our two countries to know English before the show up...because unless we do, someone from the police on down, are going to have deal with people who don't speak English as a first language. We can't get away from that.

And economically we would pay a price if we closed our doors to none-English speakers, starting with the tourists, all the way on up to the very intelligent and talented individuals that want to come live here but don't speak English by default.

Which goes to the heart of all my rambling about this. Declaring English as the official language isn't going to solve a damn thing. Because I doubt requiring everyone to speak English isn't going to solve the problems conservatives are most worried about....namely the arrival in America of the uneducated who show illegally and drain the US financially. Everyone coming across the border could speak perfect English and we would still have that problem.

If you want a real screening system, do it based on education and talent. Similar to Australia's system. But even if that system were put in place, America would still have to solve the problems that will result when we kick all the cheap labor out of the country that harvest our food, and make it affordable. Nobody has convinced me we can solve that problem, especially when Arizona farmers shuttered their operations this year for lack of labor to replace the migrants that didn't come across the border this year.

Straw men and red herrings for all!

Because Conservatives say...

Again, this isn't me, and again, just because someone makes a stupid argument for something doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have a good argument for it.

Well I say let the market take care of the language problem as well.

I have no problem with corporations packaging/marketing/etc. their products in whatever language they choose. We're talking about the official language for the government etc.

if you look hard enough at Europe, you will find that they can't get away from printing alot of things in 3 or 4 different languages.

Again, this mainly concerns commercial products, not government literature. I am vaguely familiar with the painful localization issues faced by Europeans (at least, in the software industry...it was nuts when I worked at Amazon).

Should the West Swahili guy have to know English to get a license?...Some have only been here a few months.

First of all, there is such a thing as an international driver's license. Second, why is this guy coming to stay here for months and not learning the language, first? Not that he shouldn't be allowed, but I think the burden of comprehension should be on him, not us.

I don't think we can just turn away everybody who comes to America and doesn't know English.

Nobody is saying that! We're talking about the official language...they don't do that in countries where there is an official language.

Whether they are merely a tourist or interested in becoming a citizen they still should be treated decently, and we should extend them help when we can.

As for the first part, I don't see anything indecent about having an official language! Do you feel that the Germans are not treating visitors decently by having an official language?

As for the highlighted part, why? Why should we be constantly "extending help"?

But its a bit ridiculous to assume they should know perfect English before they show up on our doorstep.

It would be...so fortunately, nobody here is saying anything close to that.

Trust me if a guy with the brains of Einstein showed up on are doorstep, and didn't know English to save his life...we'd be a fool to turn him away. And the same goes for alot of brainy foreigners showing up in our country every day.

What the hell are you talking about? No, please don't tell me.

Lets make laws that make sense, not those that are made out of some nebulous xenophobic fear.

This has nothing to do with "xenophobic fear", for the zillionth time. I know, I know...you're arguing against all those rednecks out there in Butthole, Kansas who WOULD make these arguments if they were here. So now that we've established that, and I've explained how irrelevant the dumb opinions are of some others who would support this, can you drop this angle?

Most countries in the world have an official language. Is this xenophobia? And yes, this includes nations that are frequent destinations for foreign immigrants.

but I think its a bit silly to require everyone coming to our two countries to know English before the show up

I think everyone here would agree with you.

someone from the police on down, are going to have deal with people who don't speak English as a first language

Having an official language doesn't preclude this. But it puts the onus on the visitor to communicate. This is an issue in most countries around the world, and it doesn't cripple their legal system, somehow.

If you want a real screening system, do it based on education and talent.

You seem intent on having a different conversation here...perhaps another time.

I don't object so much to Obama opining that we don't need English-only laws. I am much more concerned with his simplistic, Harvard-elite slobbering admiration for Europeans and their amazing ability to speak more than one language, and especially his patronizing scolding that the American people "need to make sure your children speak Spanish."

With the possible exception of English education (which might arguably be considered a concern of the federal government), it's none of his business whether our children speak foreign languages, or which ones they are. It's another of Obama's endless instructions to the rest of us as to how we "should" think, act, and live. If you elect this man president, you might as well lock your remote on the Oprah channel, because that's what America will become.

When I first heard Obama's uniquely derivative, yet inspirationally delivered speech less than 4 short years ago from the DNC convention hall, I said, "This guy could run for president. God help us."

An Obama presidency will give new meaning to "Big Brother." It's not just for slimy CBS reality-show parasites anymore--we can ALL play!

"Well I say let the market take care of the language problem as well."

Sounds good to me.

"You can't get a good job in the US if you don't have a good command of the English language. So if the market is as efficient as Kerry would have us believe, the market will ultimately force people who want a better life to get with the program."

No, because you have the government forces working against the market forces--first, by accomodating those who don't speak English, and second, by making it easier on people to survive without getting jobs.

"My point, if the market takes care of everything, we shouldn't have to force people to do anything...including learning English, because they will do it for their own well being."

I didn't say anything about "forcing" people to learn English. I object to forcing children to learn Spanish. If you live in America, you are going to learn English, practically without trying. If you don't, there are plenty of ways to get help. Which is another good reason NOT to require governmental authorities to print and do everything in languages other than English.

SF,

My point in that long diatribe, was to suggest that we can't get away from having to support multiple languages either in business or government. Whether we choose to codify English as the official language or not. We're still going to have to deal with tourists who don't speak alot of English, and we're still going to have to deal with legal alien residents that don't speak alot of English. And to say we aren't going to support them on the government level, will be a detriment to us, and not a plus. We'd lose billions in tourist dollars, and we lose the chance to attract alot of talent to our shores (my Einstein example).

So designating an official language isn't going to save us any money, because we are still going to be forced to hire translators, and help out those who don't speak English. And in the end we are still going to have the one problem Kerry wants to avoid....deadbeat foreigners in this country that drain the economy rather than add to it.

FYI, foreign tourists spent $104 billion dollars in the US in 2005. I am sure some of them had language issues. Shall we get rid of the multi-lingual assistance provided by TSA, FBI, local police, tourism bureaus, etc, etc, and have them spend their money elsewhere...because we only want to deal with English at the government level?

Its not realistic.

Shall we get rid of the multi-lingual assistance provided by TSA, FBI, local police, tourism bureaus, etc, etc, and have them spend their money elsewhere...because we only want to deal with English at the government level?

I do not believe that this is a real world concern of visitors to the US. Do you look at what countries have an official language before deciding to visit?

SF,

I suspect if you dig a little deeper into the German example you noted, you will find that they have a similar problem with the Turks that America has with Hispanics. And despite the declaration of German as an official language, they still have to deal with the Turks, who were originally brought in as guest workers and never left. They have to worry about the fact that many of them never learned alot of German, and yet they still have all the same issues that any human has that require government involvement, from the DMV on up to healthcare and retirement.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/25/news/turks.php

Declaring an official language does nothing in the face of reality.

I do not believe that this is a real world concern of visitors to the US. Do you look at what countries have an official language before deciding to visit?

No, I don't because I know somewhere somehow they are going to have to deal with speakers of the non-official language. Which means the government has to expend resources on non-native speakers whether they declare an official language or not.

I object to forcing children to learn Spanish.

Did you know Kerry, that Germany using despite declaring German as the official language requires its population to learn multiple languages? Why do you think they do that? Because they look around them, and see reality for what it is. We need to start prepare for the reality that to keep competitive Americans can no longer live in their insular shell, and think that the rest of the world revolves around us, and English.

That is Barack's message, its a good one, and we should learn from it. Not blow a fuse and shoot the messenger.

they have a similar problem with the Turks that America has with Hispanics

I am already aware of this.

And despite the declaration of German as an official language, they still have to deal with the Turks...Declaring an official language does nothing in the face of reality.

What do you mean, it does nothing? Says who? Certainly not the article you cite. I said in a post before that there are countries that have official languages AND immigrants with imperfect command of the language, and they manage to get by. So I'm already thinking about this. But just because they have to "deal with" something similar, doesn't mean things are exactly the same. It's kind of a silly assumption.

Truthfully, I don't know if making English official would "help" much, although I'm very confident that it wouldn't hurt. I'm approaching it mostly as a philosophical issue, namely, that the onus of comprehension should be upon the visitor.

In truth, there are cultural reprecussions to this. I was in a Walmart a couple years ago, and I approached one of the blue vested employees (emblazoned with some logo like "What can I do to help you?") to ask where they kept boxes. She didn't understand English, so she called over another employee who had a slightly better command of the language. After a little bit of pantomime etc., I just gave up. These were not people in the stock room, but staff wandering the sales floor to (presumably) assist customers.

Now, making English official won't do much for this, directly. But it makes a statement and sets a precedent. Tourists should not and will not be concerned, but long term residents who want to participate in this country as more than day laborers living in a flop house will be expected to learn English. No, they won't all up and enroll in ESL classes. But my point is that you would see more people bother to learn the language if we weren't so willing to bend over backwards to make things easy for them.

Now, while I would prefer that Walmart restrict hiring of sales staff to English speakers, this is not something I would mandate. That's a private affair, in my opinion. But I would like to establish a climate where we expect long term visitors to learn English. It doesn't have to be perfect, but hey, let's all try to be on the same page, okay?

SF,

I think we are pretty close on the practical realities of the situation, the only other area where I take issue with those who want to make English "official", is in their true motivations. You mentioned there are no "rednecks" hanging around here, but as a whole I think conservatives want to use this as a wedge issue, just like they are doing with requiring voter ID's, to disenfranchise segments of the population they would rather have to deal with. But I think conservatives are shooting themselves in the foot, because there are a lot of conservatives voters they would be excluding from the process if they went so far as to limit voting ballots to English only. And I think many of them want that.

"Did you know Kerry, that Germany using despite declaring German as the official language requires its population to learn multiple languages?"

I don't care. This isn't Germany.

"Why do you think they do that? Because they look around them, and see reality for what it is."

Germany has a long history of micro-managing its people's lives. We don't. And we don't want to develop one, either.

"We need to start prepare for the reality that to keep competitive Americans can no longer live in their insular shell, and think that the rest of the world revolves around us, and English."

In what economically important country of the world do people usually not also speak ENGLISH? Of course, there's France, which is as far from a good example on cultural diversity as one can get. Witness the poor Muslim woman who is not allowed to become a French citizen because she is "too submissive" to her husband (who is French). The Council of State decided she's not French enough:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=648489

If you look at education around the world, technically, the world DOES revolve around "us and English."

"That is Barack's message, its a good one, and we should learn from it. Not blow a fuse and shoot the messenger."

No, Barack's message is "You stupid American hicks in Georgia need to become more European. Teach your kids Spanish or something, so at least you won't embarrass me and your country when you win the state lottery and stumble over to Europe to be loud-mouthed rude American tourists. Try to be more like me. I went to Harvard."

[Ahmanrah to SF]: "I think we are pretty close on the practical realities of the situation, the only other area where I take issue with those who want to make English "official", is in their true motivations."

Oh, right. You know what our "true" motivations are. Not the ones we "think" we have, right Dr. Freud? Guess what? Sometimes a desire to have a unifying language is just a desire to have a unifying language, and not latent Paris envy.

"You mentioned there are no "rednecks" hanging around here, but as a whole I think conservatives want to use this as a wedge issue, just like they are doing with requiring voter ID's, to disenfranchise segments of the population they would rather have to deal with."

Um...wait. By "segments of the population they would rather [I assume you intended a "not" here] have to deal with" you mean "illegal voters?" Because that's what the law is about. Keeping people in, for example, Indiana, from voting like people in Chicago--i.e., after they are dead, when they don't exist, and when they do not have and never have had a right to vote.

"But I think conservatives are shooting themselves in the foot, because there are a lot of conservatives voters they would be excluding from the process if they went so far as to limit voting ballots to English only. And I think many of them want that."

How hard is it to tell the difference between "McCain" and "Obama" even in SPANISH? Punch the hole for "Juan McCain" or "? Obama." Any idiot could figure that out. This isn't about reading a ballot in another language. It's about having papers that prove you are a citizen of the United States registered to vote in your (precinct/state/region, however it's done where you are. We don't have precincts anymore; we have "voting centers." If Illinois did that, half the aldermen in Chicago would have no reason for being.)

That's not discrimination. That's protecting the franchise from fraud.

Kerry,

There are alot of people in history who assumed the world would always remain the same, and then they found out otherwise. There use to be who towns and cities in the US filed with families who one generation after another could count on the Big Three to give them jobs. There were generations of fisherman who could count on fishing as a livelihood. There used to 1000s of textile and manufacturing jobs in the US...that aren't here anymore. Its dangerous to assume everyone will always be cowtowing to English and America.

You call learning multiple language - being European. Most other people on Earth call it being modern.

And there is more to voting than just voting for president. If you have ever voted for a ballot initiative, you know what I mean.

"That is Barack's message, its a good one, and we should learn from it. Not blow a fuse and shoot the messenger." - ahmanrah

No, Barack's message is "You stupid American hicks in Georgia need to become more European. Teach your kids Spanish or something, so at least you won't embarrass me and your country when you win the state lottery and stumble over to Europe to be loud-mouthed rude American tourists. Try to be more like me. I went to Harvard." - Kerry

[Ahmanrah to SF]: "I think we are pretty close on the practical realities of the situation, the only other area where I take issue with those who want to make English "official", is in their true motivations." - ahmanrah

Oh, right. You know what our "true" motivations are. Not the ones we "think" we have, right Dr. Freud? Guess what? Sometimes a desire to have a unifying language is just a desire to have a unifying language, and not latent Paris envy. - Kerry

Prenez-vous la pisse? So ahmanrah isn't allowed to guess at your motivations, but you get to translate Obamas pronouncements for us. Plus given the number of times you've told us all what the real motives are for the gay lobby in seeking same sex partnerships "it's not for equality in law it's.... yada yada yada". You translate the bible for us, Obamas pronouncements, the gay lobby views - truely you are the Rosetta stone of PME, only of course unlike the Rosetta stone you choose to do it all in one language ;-)

But I did love you calling him Freud and then you corrupting "sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" - accident or deliberate self parody? Maybe ahmanrah should try the Magritte defence "Ceci n'est pas une pipe".

"So ahmanrah isn't allowed to guess at your motivations, but you get to translate Obamas pronouncements for us."

I've been trained to do that. If Ahmanrah has been more highly trained in the political psychology of groups, fine. I bow to his expertise.

"Plus given the number of times you've told us all what the real motives are for the gay lobby in seeking same sex partnerships "it's not for equality in law it's.... yada yada yada"."

I'm just reporting what they told us when this all began. And what leaders of the movement have consistently said in internal documents, lobbying efforts, and strategy sessions. If you don't want to believe them, I'm sure nothing would please them more. Personally, I tend to prefer inside information, when it is available to me.

"You translate the bible for us..."

No, I just report the translations. I do, however, attempt to bring the best-agreed-upon interpretations from the perspectives we are concerned with. If you want to talk about Catholics, I'll give you the official Catholic interpretation. If we are talking Holy Spirit issues, I'll give you the Pentecostal flavor, and if you want to talk liberation theology, I'll give you that.

"Obamas pronouncements, the gay lobby views - truely you are the Rosetta stone of PME, only of course unlike the Rosetta stone you choose to do it all in one language ;-)"

It's easier that way.

"But I did love you calling him Freud and then you corrupting "sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" - accident or deliberate self parody?"

An homage. But I have always heard it as "cigar," not "pipe." The pipe does not hold the proper shape for the explanation, and Freud was known to smoke 15-20 cigars a day, which gave him oral cancer and a prosthetic jaw.

"Maybe ahmanrah should try the Magritte defence "Ceci n'est pas une pipe"."

Fun fact about Magritte: in 2005, a Belgian tv station had a poll that found him the 18th greatest Belgian. He came in behind Pieter Breughel the Elder, Erasmus, Rebens, and Jacques Brel (Father Damien was first.) But he did beat Emperor Charles V by 3 places.

Anyway, that was very clever. But one does not need to speak French to know important historical and cultural phrases. And, to get back on the topic, for what does one truly need to speak Spanish? It seems to me that the primary need in America for Spanish speakers tends to be to provide services to people who do not speak English. That could be ameliorated by simply accelerating the process by which those who don't are enabled to learn English.

After all, the government has occasional need of interpreters for the deaf, translators of Chinese, and dog trainers. But I don't see Barack scolding us to "make sure" our children learn those things, is he?

"So ahmanrah isn't allowed to guess at your motivations, but you get to translate Obamas pronouncements for us."

I've been trained to do that. If Ahmanrah has been more highly trained in the political psychology of groups, fine. I bow to his expertise.

"Plus given the number of times you've told us all what the real motives are for the gay lobby in seeking same sex partnerships "it's not for equality in law it's.... yada yada yada"."

I'm just reporting what they told us when this all began. And what leaders of the movement have consistently said in internal documents, lobbying efforts, and strategy sessions. If you don't want to believe them, I'm sure nothing would please them more. Personally, I tend to prefer inside information, when it is available to me.

"You translate the bible for us..."

No, I just report the translations. I do, however, attempt to bring the best-agreed-upon interpretations from the perspectives we are concerned with. If you want to talk about Catholics, I'll give you the official Catholic interpretation. If we are talking Holy Spirit issues, I'll give you the Pentecostal flavor, and if you want to talk liberation theology, I'll give you that.

"Obamas pronouncements, the gay lobby views - truely you are the Rosetta stone of PME, only of course unlike the Rosetta stone you choose to do it all in one language ;-)"

It's easier that way.

"But I did love you calling him Freud and then you corrupting "sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" - accident or deliberate self parody?"

An homage. But I have always heard it as "cigar," not "pipe." The pipe does not hold the proper shape for the explanation, and Freud was known to smoke 15-20 cigars a day, which gave him oral cancer and a prosthetic jaw.

"Maybe ahmanrah should try the Magritte defence "Ceci n'est pas une pipe"."

Fun fact about Magritte: in 2005, a Belgian tv station had a poll that found him the 18th greatest Belgian. He came in behind Pieter Breughel the Elder, Erasmus, Rebens, and Jacques Brel (Father Damien was first.) But he did beat Emperor Charles V by 3 places.

Anyway, that was very clever. But one does not need to speak French to know important historical and cultural phrases. And, to get back on the topic, for what does one truly need to speak Spanish? It seems to me that the primary need in America for Spanish speakers tends to be to provide services to people who do not speak English. That could be ameliorated by simply accelerating the process by which those who don't are enabled to learn English.

After all, the government has occasional need of interpreters for the deaf, translators of Chinese, and dog trainers. But I don't see Barack scolding us to "make sure" our children learn those things, is he?

Sorry about the double post. It froze up the first time, but apparently posted anyway.

You Americans better make sure YOUR kid knows how to fix a computer! (And, as with Spanish, most kids already know more about than you do, anyway, so that advice is pretty useless. But it works for Obamaa, so who am I to argue with a winning strategy?)

Actually, the KKK belongs lock stock and double barrels to southern christian conservatives. Their party affiliation has changed over time.

So Senator Robert Byrd....DEMOCRAT... former Grand Kleagel of the Klan...is really a conservative christian?

Doesn't amaze me one bit that the Democrats STILL won't get rid of him.

I think the deal here is that liberals will bend over backwards to accommodate pretty much any special need. They will go so far to avoid being thought of as racist that this is a perfect cover for the knee-jerk. Frankly, I find it all tiresome. Forget the accusations of racism and whatever-ism, and just think about what's practical.

ding ding ding we have a winnah!!! Race-baitikng "arty" wants to pin the Klan label on those that want the government to conduct its business in english. ahmanrah wants to make us all xenophobic fear-mongers.

I want a smaller and cheaper government that doesn't need to print election ballots in Sandawe.

Just wondering.....is there a written form of the African "click-languages?" How does one write the click-consonant?

Hiya Kerry,

just checked

"a cigar is just a cigar" 70,800 hits on google

"a pipe is just a pipe" 3,690 hits on google

- a little further research indicates there are a couple of varients on this story, no idea why the pipe one is the one lodged in my brain but obviously I'm not alone.

As for Paris envy, I was going to say most of what Freud said was rubbish and I'm sure you all are happy with you Vienna - so I decided in the spirit of things to look up a Vienna in the US rather than Europe - looks like the biggest Vienna you have is in Virginia - I think I'll stop there, before I lower the tone any further.

It does bring me on to my favourite bilingiual joke - you need someone whose German is pretty good for them to get it without too much head scratching and it should be said rather than written - what according to Freud lies between fear and sex?

Fünf

Damn, I can only count in German, but I got it. It took me a while, though. Nice one!

*Snicker.*

Pretty good, WB.

Who says the English have no sense of humor?

Oh, wait. I forgot about Benny Hill.

But that WAS a good joke!

Speaking of bending over backwards, there's an ad on Lifetime at the moment urging "women" to vote, because "every woman counts."

Who wants to predict how fast that ad would be pulled if it were urging MEN to vote because "every MAN counts?"

Also, would it be considered racist if a white entertainer (a la Puffy Combs Diddy P. Daddy or whatever he's calling himself these days) went on a white awards show and said, "McCain or Die" ? (PD was on the BET awards and said "Obama or die.")

Oh, wait. I forgot. There's no such thing as a "white awards show," and if there were, it would probably be illegal. Also, there is no White Entertainment Network, and suggesting the creation of one would be classified as hateful and discriminatory speech.

Oh, and let's not forget that there's a whole network dedicated to gay viewers (and I don't mean Oxygen, WE, Lifetime, ABC, NBC, or CBS [which is now the network of polymorphous perversion, speaking of Freud.]) So, when will someone put up the money for the Just Straight Folk Network?

No, there are no double standards in America. Nah.

Kerry,

I am trying to figure out what your last post has to do with Obama's comment about Spanish? Are you proving my point that Conservatives want to use English, and "other tools" to push back against constituencies it has a problem with. First it was enshrining marriage to stop the Gay agenda, then it was enshrining English to stop the Hispanic agenda...hmm, what next? I can only imagine.

Every time I hear, why isn't their a white this and a white that, I have to roll my eyes? Look around. Do you see a lack of white actors on TV? Do you see a lack of white actors getting awards? No. How about straight actors? No. But guess what, blacks at least at one time, in the not to distant past could clearly demonstrate they were not getting high profile roles or being recognized. When could the same be said for Whites in the last 200+ years of American history. And how about gays? Something tells me you'd love to see networks dedicated to gays have the legs cut out from underneath them. So you and others with similar opinions more than justify the rational for their existence.

"I am trying to figure out what your last post has to do with Obama's comment about Spanish?"

I don't know. Are you?

Sorry, that was picky.

Sigh. My last post is bouncing off SF's comment (also responded to by Sarge) that liberals will "bend over backward" to accommodate those with a "special need" (which some of us call "pandering"). I was just observing that the specialization of race, gender, interests, etc., is only allowed to run one way.

"Are you proving my point that Conservatives want to use English, and "other tools" to push back against constituencies it has a problem with."

Silly boy. I would NEVER purposely prove a point of yours. Conservatives don't HAVE "a problem" with legal immigrants who don't speak English. We are willing to (excuse the expression) "bend over backwards" to help them learn English and assimilate. We are NOT willing to change our customs and cultures to accommodate them. It is no more appropriate for us to do that than to expect everyone in every nation to speak English just because we are visiting there. I, myself, teach English as a second language to Hispanics when the need arises, and I don't feel the least bit guilty about not speaking Spanish in order to do so. Strangely, they actually seem to WANT to speak English. Go figure.

"First it was enshrining marriage to stop the Gay agenda..."

Marriage is already "enshrined." That is the problem, apparently. The homosexuals can't get it, so they want to demolish the building.

"...then it was enshrining English to stop the Hispanic agenda...hmm, what next? I can only imagine."

What "Hispanic agenda?" I would like everyone in America to speak English, because a common culture is best served by a common language.

"Every time I hear, why isn't their a white this and a white that, I have to roll my eyes?"

I don't know--do you? (Why do you keep asking me these questions?)

"Look around. Do you see a lack of white actors on TV?"

No, but I don't see a lack of gay ones, either. Do you? And I do see a lack of black actors in liberal tv shows of the 1980s and 1990s, like Seinfeld, Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Mad About You--and all Woody Allen movies.

"Do you see a lack of white actors getting awards?"

That's not the point. The point is not that white people don't NEED groups to protect their interests or to build their cultural esteem. The point is that they aren't ALLOWED to have them. It is forbidden. Meantime, everyone else "counts." "Every woman counts."

"No. How about straight actors? No. But guess what, blacks at least at one time, in the not to distant past could clearly demonstrate they were not getting high profile roles or being recognized."

And now?

"When could the same be said for Whites in the last 200+ years of American history. And how about gays?"

Does it make any difference to you that whites ae 85% of the population and blacks are 13%? Wouldn't that indicate that whites should be overwhelmingly dominant in everything anyway? And gays are about 5% of the total population, yet they are solidly represented on every network, in film, and everywhere else. Why? Because they have lobbyists on at every studio and on every movie lot in Hollywood, making sure that happens. If it doesn't happen, bad things happen to those products.

Straight white men don't have that.

"Something tells me you'd love to see networks dedicated to gays have the legs cut out from underneath them."

Well, sure. But mostly because they have such horrible shows on them. I am still trying to figure out why anyone wanted to watch Will and Grace, especially gay people, since it actually made them look like nasty, back-stabbing, promiscuous creeps.

"So you and others with similar opinions more than justify the rational for their existence."

Oh, I see. Special groups need to be protected from other people's THOUGHTS and OPINIONS. And those thoughts and opinions need to be driven out of the culture by special interest groups?

"Does it make any difference to you that whites ae 85% of the population..."

Oops. Of course, that should be "whites ATE 85% of the population."

No, that's not right. "are." But if you spend enough time at major amusement parks, you are tempted to think that first one was right.

"whites ATE 85% of the population."

I was beginning to wonder where everyone went. Pew! ;o)