This statement tells me more, much more, about Barack Obama than I ever wanted to know. It tells me that he takes neither his faith nor his integrity seriously.

I agree with this. I think he took religion on as political window dressing, and Wright's church was essential for him to establish credibility in Chicago's black community.

I'm fairly confident that religion plays this role for many, many politicians. I think this is quite common.

I also believe its planned for some of these political operatives to make a controversial statements, take a bullet for the party, and then let themselves get tossed off the bus. It just happens way to much during campaigns like this to be accidental. Most of these guys are not that stupid, but I am sure they are perfectly willing to take a personal hit if it starts something that get's their candidate into office.

"I also believe its planned for some of these political operatives to make a controversial statements, take a bullet for the party, and then let themselves get tossed off the bus."

That would be a stretch with Wright. There's nothing new about his controversial statements. you could have pulled quotes like this 20 years ago. I don't think Obama manufactured this; after all, there's no upside to it. How will being a 20-year acolyte of an apparent racist help Obama get into office?

Unless you mean Wright is working for the Clintons?

"I think he took religion on as political window dressing, and Wright's church was essential for him to establish credibility in Chicago's black community."

Actually, that's not what I meant. I think Barack is sincerely a devotee of Wright, but willing to slough him off if he has to. At the same time, I don't think he has a problem pretending to renounce beliefs he has held for 20 years (Wright's comments are perfectly in line with Michelle Obama's comments about being "proud" of the country), because he's a politician. And politicians have something of an "open marriage" when it comes to their relationship with the truth.

And if Barack Obama's participation in the TUMC was such a door-opener, he wouldn't have lost to Bobby Rush when he ran for Congress.

And here's an old interview with Wright that sure sounds like Obama knew about the "social gospel" of Jeremiah Wright. It also gives me the strong impression that this "renunciation" is a political trick; in the article, Wright admits Barack might have to "distance himself" from the church for political viability.

Sorry, but there's neither integrity nor Christianity in that. Not from either one of them. It's deception and opportunism. And, to me, it's utterly disgusting.

(That reminds me. I saw a newscaster utter two sentences that I think sum up the media at this time in history: "It's totally disgusting. And we'll be talking more about it in the next hour.")

It's also a little scary that Oprah gets her spiritual leadership from Wright, since she has more power to move the culture.

Oops. Here's the link:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week1028/interview.html

Actually, that's not what I meant. I think Barack is sincerely a devotee of Wright, but willing to slough him off if he has to.

Honestly, I think you have that opinion because it allows you to think the maximum number of bad things about Obama. There's nothing else to indicate that Obama agrees with Wright's more controversial beliefs. I think my scenario makes a lot more sense.

I strongly suspect there is some kind of political alliance between Wright and Obama. A man with a flock like Wright's surely has real political clout. People like that serve as kingmakers in local elections. No doubt there has been an open channel between the two for years. But I would expect any kind of ideological alignment to be almost incidental.

(Wright's comments are perfectly in line with Michelle Obama's comments about being "proud" of the country)

In my opinion, Michelle Obama is going to be a huge liability for hubby Barack in the generals. If I was McCain's staff, I'd be looking for all kinds of subtle ways to bait this woman. The angry black woman thing may pass muster in the democratic party, but it won't survive the main event.

...politicians have something of an "open marriage" when it comes to their relationship with the truth.

No diggity.

""Actually, that's not what I meant. I think Barack is sincerely a devotee of Wright, but willing to slough him off if he has to.""

"Honestly, I think you have that opinion because it allows you to think the maximum number of bad things about Obama."

No, to me it would be a worse thing to do what Obama claims to have done--sit 20 years under the teaching of a racist hate-monger.

"There's nothing else to indicate that Obama agrees with Wright's more controversial beliefs. I think my scenario makes a lot more sense."

Then you don't know church. You don't sit 20 years under a pastor unless you love him. Bottom line.

"I strongly suspect there is some kind of political alliance between Wright and Obama. A man with a flock like Wright's surely has real political clout."

No, baby. You don't know Chicago. You want Chicago clout you go to the Salem Baptist Church House of Hope:

http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/churchofclout/

If you head to the suburbs, you might go to Willow Creek.

Trinity may be the biggest of the UCC, but it means very little in Chicago. Wright preaches political activism, but he doesn't wield any influence, even with Oprah in attendance.

"People like that serve as kingmakers in local elections."

No, not in Chicago. In Chicago the Democratic party makes all the kings. Obama's luck wasn't to join TUMC. It was to catch the eye of Illinois Senate president Emil Jones, who steered him into politics.

"No doubt there has been an open channel between the two for years. But I would expect any kind of ideological alignment to be almost incidental."

Then you don't know what you're talking about. Obama's religion is opportunistic, but he sincerely believes in it. Jeremiah Wright, as I said, preaches politics, but has no clout. Obama chose Wright to be his spiritual leader long before he was on his way up, politically. Remember: he's been in the church 20 years; he was only elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996. His relationship with his pastor is as long as his relationship with his wife; I don't think either is a thing of convenience.

"In my opinion, Michelle Obama is going to be a huge liability for hubby Barack in the generals."

I'm not sure he's going to get that far, but if so I agree. For a wide variety of reasons--not the least of which is that she seems a lot like Hillary.

"If I was McCain's staff, I'd be looking for all kinds of subtle ways to bait this woman. The angry black woman thing may pass muster in the democratic party, but it won't survive the main event."

Michelle Obama isn't an "angry black woman." This isn't a Tyler Perry movie. Michelle Obama is a hospital administrator with a great education and a destructive tendency to pretend she's poor. She chafes at being first ladyish, and she's unconvincing in acting the part of the underprivileged black woman.

By the way, let's get something straight. Neither Obama has much legitimate relationship to poverty, single motherhood, or any of that. Barack's mother was a college educated woman, who was white. His father was a foreign student, who died. His stepfather was a foreign student, as well. These weren't impoverished illegal immigrants we're talking about. Barack wasn't raised POOR in Indonesia; he was raised rich. And he didn't live the age of ten until he graduated being raised by a "single mom." He was raised by his grandparents in HAWAII.

This whole "great black hope"/"I feel your pain" thing is a total sham.

Then you don't know church. You don't sit 20 years under a pastor unless you love him.

Geez, it's not like I didn't used to go to church for two decades myself, or know people and have family members who go to church. You certainly can "sit 20 years under a pastor" without loving him, especially if it is expedient to your career.

No, baby. You don't know Chicago...Jeremiah Wright, as I said, preaches politics, but has no clout.

That doesn't make any sense. The man has a huge church with tons of people who listen to him and take him seriously. Ipso facto. If he talks about politics, he has political clout. It may be grassroots, but there it is. Says who he has no clout? Because YOU haven't heard him mentioned as a "player"? Pardon my skepticism (nothing new there).

His relationship with his pastor is as long as his relationship with his wife; I don't think either is a thing of convenience.

It's not like there are no such things as marriages of convenience, and a lot less commitment is required when it comes to joining a church. And please don't give me some giant lecture about all the stuff you do for your church and how committed you are to it. I know first-hand that you don't have to do a lot to call yourself a member of a church -- just warm a bench for a couple hours a week, tops.

Michelle Obama isn't an "angry black woman."

Uhhhh, so? I'm not talking about who she is, I'm talking about how she can be portrayed, with ease. It WILL be a Tyler Perry movie when your boys get done with her. That's an old game for the GOP.

Besides, actually she DOES seem to be angry, black and female, to me. She might not fit some kind of neck-snapping stereotype, but that's not all there is to how people will react.

Neither Obama has much legitimate relationship to poverty, single motherhood, or any of that.

I don't get it; who cares? Is this the old John Edwards test, where you have to be have been poor to care about the poor? Of course, in his case, the requirements were even more stringent, since he had once been poor, but had lost credibility by acquiring wealth.

"No, baby. You don't know Chicago...Jeremiah Wright, as I said, preaches politics, but has no clout.

That doesn't make any sense. The man has a huge church with tons of people who listen to him and take him seriously. Ipso facto. If he talks about politics, he has political clout. It may be grassroots, but there it is. Says who he has no clout? Because YOU haven't heard him mentioned as a "player"? Pardon my skepticism (nothing new there)."

I'm telling you, Chicago politics is an animal unto itself. It's corrupt, but systematically so. And Wright isn't part of that system. (Lucky for him right now, since they're going through another one of their periodic spasms of conscience when they investigate and get rid of a handful of corrupt officials. Obama knows Rezko, but Wright probably doesn't.)

""Neither Obama has much legitimate relationship to poverty, single motherhood, or any of that.""

"I don't get it; who cares? Is this the old John Edwards test, where you have to be have been poor to care about the poor? Of course, in his case, the requirements were even more stringent, since he had once been poor, but had lost credibility by acquiring wealth."

No, it's important because Barack and his people keep playing this card, trying to link his upbringing at the hands of a "poor single mom" to the BLACK single moms they are trying to politically activate. of course, Barack's mom was white, not poor, and he was raised by his grandparents, not by her.

Just a few details out of place. Nothing of importance to Democrats. Just facts.

I particularly loved the part about the U.S. government creating the HIV virus as a means to commit genocide on black people.

Good ole U.S. of KKK...

Religious belief = submission and control of the masses. It's the easy way out. Obama is a member of this church, big deal. Christians of all sorts believe in all sorts of nonsense, their silly Bible talks of genocide and murder in the name of God. Just because this crazy black preacher says some crazy stuff doesn't scare me into thinking Obama is "blinded" I agree with Some Fella in regards to Politician’s using faith tool to control. That's all it's ever been and all it will ever be.

Historically the black church was the only place a black person could express their views. Preacher/Pastors were and still are allowed to voice their opinions (no matter how ignorant) regarding race, politics, economics, crime, etc.

“Then you don't know church. You don't sit 20 years under a pastor unless you love him. Bottom line.”

This is so not true. You sit under a pastor because you respect his/her biblical preaching and teaching. Not because you love them. I love many people but I would not be caught dead in a church that they pastor.

“Then you don't know what you're talking about. Obama's religion is opportunistic, but he sincerely believes in it. Jeremiah Wright, as I said, preaches politics, but has no clout. Obama chose Wright to be his spiritual leader long before he was on his way up, politically. Remember: he's been in the church 20 years; he was only elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996. His relationship with his pastor is as long as his relationship with his wife; I don't think either is a thing of convenience.”

How can you determine if someone’s religion is opportunistic? As you stated Jeremiah Wright preaches politics…this is something the black church historically stays away from. Yes, the civil right movement was born in the church however when the ‘church’ was organizing boycotts, marches, sit-ins and voter registration drives, the church never told you how to vote or who to vote for. The statements that Jeremiah Wright made are of his opinion. He just happens to have an audience to voice his opinion to. Well, he’s retired so he won’t be voicing his opinion every Sunday…just when he decides to be the guest speaker.

“By the way, let's get something straight. Neither Obama has much legitimate relationship to poverty, single motherhood, or any of that. Barack's mother was a college educated woman, who was white. His father was a foreign student, who died. His stepfather was a foreign student, as well. These weren't impoverished illegal immigrants we're talking about. Barack wasn't raised POOR in Indonesia; he was raised rich. And he didn't live the age of ten until he graduated being raised by a "single mom." He was raised by his grandparents in HAWAII.”

I’ve been all over Obama's official web site as well as heard him speak on two different occasions. He has never stated he grew up in poverty. He never states he was raised “poor”. Michelle grew up on Chicago’s Westside…have you ever been to the Westside of Chicago? She went to the infamous WM Young HS. She may not have lived in poverty but she did not grow up rich or well off. I would be willing to bet (if I were a betting woman) that her family struggled to make ends meet. But again, I have not seen or heard that she has tried to say otherwise.

“Trinity may be the biggest of the UCC, but it means very little in Chicago. Wright preaches political activism, but he doesn't wield any influence, even with Oprah in attendance.”

Ummm…I disagree. He has influenced over 10,000 members…not to mention the thousands of guest that visit from week to week. This man’s TV ministry is just as popular as Bishop TJ Jakes, Bishop Paul Morton, and Kenneth Copeland. He has influence. Successful political activism starts at the ground level. The reason you don’t think he has influence is because you don’t see him rubbing elbows with political figures. He’s already told you how he feels about America, her politics and political system. You probably will never see him rubbing elbows with politicians. I for one am happy about that. I’m sick of our churches and preachers being pimped by politicians that only come to the congregation during election time. But that’s just my opinion.

But wait…what was the issue with John Hagee’s endorsement of John Mccain? John Hagee said American foreign policy towards Palestine is causing God to attack the United States with terrorists. John Mccains response was:"...Well I think it's important to note that pastor John Hagee who has supported and endorsed my candidacy supports what I stand for and believe in. When he endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for and believes."

I wonder why it is easy to believe that Sen. Mccain doesn't embrace everything that John Hagee stands for and believes but we can't understand why Sen. Obama does't embrace everything that Dr. Wright stands for and believes??? Just a question.

Anyway, looks like a tie in the race for crazy preachers. One crazy preacher for conservatives: One crazy preacher for democrats.

No, it's important because Barack and his people keep playing this card, trying to link his upbringing at the hands of a "poor single mom" to the BLACK single moms they are trying to politically activate.

If you say so. That's news to me, but I don't listen to a a lot of the rhetoric, so I could have missed it. EAHD seems to disagree, however.

I'm telling you, Chicago politics is an animal unto itself. It's corrupt, but systematically so. And Wright isn't part of that system.

I've heard about Chicago politics in general, but I'm curious to know how you know Wright isn't a player. If you do, you do, and you'll be able to back it up, but I'm skeptical.

Besides, the "system" is never everything. The man does not hold back on his political opinions; you think that doesn't influence his flock? What about all those people who have to "love" him, according to you?

Yes, I know, Obama is another crypto-radical... it's apparent you're already setting up the script.

"Anyway, looks like a tie in the race for crazy preachers. One crazy preacher for conservatives: One crazy preacher for democrats."

A typical Democratic false equivalency. Comparing apples and oranges. The conservative "crazy preacher" ENDORSES the candidate. The liberal "crazy preacher" MENTORED the candidate. Not the same thing.

"But wait…what was the issue with John Hagee’s endorsement of John Mccain?"

There is no such "issue." John Hagee endorses John McCain. So what? McCain endorses Hagee's support of his candidacy and his support of the war. That's not an issue.

"John Hagee said American foreign policy towards Palestine is causing God to attack the United States with terrorists. John Mccains response was:"...Well I think it's important to note that pastor John Hagee who has supported and endorsed my candidacy supports what I stand for and believe in. When he endorses me, it does not mean that I embrace everything that he stands for and believes."

And what's the problem with that? Hagee agree with McCain. That doesn't mean McCain agrees with Hagee.

"I wonder why it is easy to believe that Sen. Mccain doesn't embrace everything that John Hagee stands for and believes but we can't understand why Sen. Obama does't embrace everything that Dr. Wright stands for and believes??? Just a question."

Are you really serious? John Hagee barely knows John McCain. Jeremiah Wright PASTORED Obama and his family for 20 YEARS. Presumably, Obama's children have grow up to believe this Afrocentric nonsense. And somehow we are supposed to believe that Barack slept through church for 20 years?

When he considered becoming a candidate, he consulted Jeremiah Wright. He's known him longer than he's been in politics--longer even than he's known his wife. He CHOSE him. This denial that he knew anything about him--particularly when everyone else who had ever heard of Jeremiah Wright knew all this--is just not credible. And are we really supposed to believe that Obama didn't know Wright went to Libya with FARRAKHAN?

""I'm telling you, Chicago politics is an animal unto itself. It's corrupt, but systematically so. And Wright isn't part of that system.""

"I've heard about Chicago politics in general, but I'm curious to know how you know Wright isn't a player. If you do, you do, and you'll be able to back it up, but I'm skeptical."

I'm not sure how you expect me to prove the negative.

Wright isn't an alderman, a crooked real-estate developer, a state Senator, a city councilman. He can preach all he wants, but he can't deliver cash. He does work locally, but his preaching is globally political, not locally so.

The clout in Chicago is wielded by politicians, developers, members of the Mafia, and their friends. People named Daley and Madigan figure prominently. Here's a small article on some of the names:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/hired/31450,cst-nws-hired201.article

Here's a more recent example:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/2008/02/rezko-clout-lis.html

Your error is in believing that votes equal clout. They don't. Clout is based on access, and access is what people like Wright NEED, not what they can PROVIDE. (You'll note that Barack Obama is on this list, though the MSM has not paid any attention to it.)

"Besides, the "system" is never everything."

It is in Chicago.

"The man does not hold back on his political opinions; you think that doesn't influence his flock? What about all those people who have to "love" him, according to you?""

What about them? They're not players. The people who go to Salem Baptist are players. Not because they go to the church, but because they already ARE clouted players. If you want something done in Chicago, you just buy an alderman. There's no need to waste your time pushing some preacher to tell people to vote for something.

Speaking of preachers, here's an interesting old bit about why Obama distanced himself from Wright:

"The night before he announced his candidacy for president in February, Obama withdrew an invitation to Wright to give the public invocation, a decision that did not sit well with some other Chicago pastors. Pfleger said Obama told him that he didn't want criticism of Wright to detract from the big day. "I told him I thought it was the wrong decision," Pfleger said in an interview.

Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for the campaign, said "the change was made in order to avoid having statements and beliefs being used out of context and forcing the entire church to defend itself."

This is from:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0716/p01s01-uspo.html?page=4

A Christian Science Monitor piece, from July of 07.

So, he knew about Wright as far back as that. Wright knew a year ago that he would be a problem for Barack. The idea that Obama has been blindsided by these quotes this week is ludicrous.

Though he may well have released them himself to draw attention away from Friday's admission that Tony Rezko was a major fund-raiser for him and in fact probably raised about a quarter of a million dollars for Obama. That was buried pretty effectively by the Wright fallout.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/14/MN2TVKAAH.DTL&type=politics

"Are you really serious? John Hagee barely knows John McCain. Jeremiah Wright PASTORED Obama and his family for 20 YEARS. Presumably, Obama's children have grow up to believe this Afrocentric nonsense. And somehow we are supposed to believe that Barack slept through church for 20 years?"

So what? I've known my brother for my entire life. We've lived together. We were raised by the same mother. And we attended the same church and high school. My brother is the Godfather of my child and is my best friend. That dosen't mean that we agree on social or political issues. I would say that I'm 'closer' to my brother than Sen.Obama is to Pastor Wright. So I guess in your Stepford Wifes world you and everyone you know all think the absolute same thing. If so, I'm so sorry for you.

SSE, please know that Kerry is a part of a small few. Most of us that attend church do so for spiritual leadership...we can discern biblical fact from personal opinion. Pastor Wright was expressing his personal opinion. Just like John Hagee.

Hi Kerry,

First things first..

Is Obama kidding, or does he really think the American people are fools enough to believe that he doesn't even know what his own pastor--the man under whom he found salvation, got married, and had his children baptized--believes on a wide variety of topics?

Is there something I'm missing, or does every member of a church, temple, mosque etc. believe exactly as their cleric does? I attend services from time to time, and as I'm standing on line to greet my sometime spiritual leader, I hear all sorts of banter from other attendees, about the sermon/talk's subject matter. As you might imagine, I engage him or her with banter too (the preacher varies.)

Maybe it's just them being gregarious, or maybe it's that we don't all see things the same way. What say you, Kerry, am I oversimplifying things, or is there an implication here worth considering - that Obama has to think and believe the same way his spiritual leader does, particularly if he doesn't refute some of his leader's beliefs?

I'd like to think Obama's shown himself able to think for himself. He's clearly no puppet, IMO. And he did say what he thought about his pastor's words, though - the question is, whether you believe him, those of you who are critical of him not speaking up sooner.

Oh, and doesn't this same question come up with Republican leaders from time to time? Like when what's-his-name visited Bob Jones U., did he denounce their stance on things? No, he didn't.

One more thing, slightly off-topic - did any of you read or hear what the new NYS guvnor said in his speech?! He admitted infidelity. Think what you will of him, but you gotta admit that what he did takes guts. It was also politically savvy, given what his former boss just got caught doing - attempt to defuse the outgoing administration's absolute stupidity, and also showing his human side. And maybe also inoculating himself (partially) against future accusations by the state employee he cheated on his wife with.

Frackin' politicians, they're just so ... human.

"So what? I've known my brother for my entire life. We've lived together. We were raised by the same mother. And we attended the same church and high school. My brother is the Godfather of my child and is my best friend. That dosen't mean that we agree on social or political issues."

If he were a racist, would you CHOOSE to spend so much time with him? You don't HAVE to stay in the same church, with the same pastor. And anybody who stays in a church with a racist pastor either doesn't know the pastor's a racist, or doesn't care.

"I would say that I'm 'closer' to my brother than Sen.Obama is to Pastor Wright."

Obama CHOSE to be INSTRUCTED by Wright. SHEPHERDED by him. He worked CLOSELY with him in the community--and he was first attracted to him BY his position on SOUTH AFRICA. Barack Obama knew what kind of church this was, going into it. But he's been in it so long he can't see the development of anti-American racism in it. To me, that doesn't speak well of his judgment.

"SSE, please know that Kerry is a part of a small few."

I don't think so. Look at this research from Barna:

***1. People 25 or younger listed friends as their most critical network; church ranked fifth on their hierarchy. In contrast, adults over 25 ranked church as their key social group, followed by their work relationships. 2. Three-quarters of evangelicals (74%) said their church was their main social network. They were the only population segment from which half or more identified a given network. Atheists and agnostics were most likely to rate their workplace as their top network. Notional Christians were evenly divided, with one-fifth identifying work, one-fifth mentioning their church, and one-fifth listing friends. 3. Unexpectedly, residents of the West were more likely to list their church group than any other group. 4. While 44% of Protestants said their church was the prime social group in their life, only 16% of Catholics concurred. Among Catholics, their church ranked as the third most significant social group. 5. Political conservatives were more than twice as likely as political liberals to position their church as their central social group. Liberals were nearly evenly divided among work, social clubs, friends and church as their dominant social associations.***

That's neither small, nor few. If something is your "most important" social group, I don't find it credible that you don't know what's being taught there.

"Most of us that attend church do so for spiritual leadership...we can discern biblical fact from personal opinion. Pastor Wright was expressing his personal opinion. Just like John Hagee."

No, he wasn't. This is his THEOLOGY. And John Hagee's "opinions" about Israel are HIS *theology.* That's their worldview. What you preach from the pulpit--unless otherwise identified--is a teaching of theology. The "spiritual leadership" of racism is STILL racism.

""Is Obama kidding, or does he really think the American people are fools enough to believe that he doesn't even know what his own pastor--the man under whom he found salvation, got married, and had his children baptized--believes on a wide variety of topics?""

"Is there something I'm missing, or does every member of a church, temple, mosque etc. believe exactly as their cleric does?"

That's not the question. The question is, why would someone sit under a racist teaching, when he's supposedly NOT a racist?

"I attend services from time to time, and as I'm standing on line to greet my sometime spiritual leader, I hear all sorts of banter from other attendees, about the sermon/talk's subject matter. As you might imagine, I engage him or her with banter too (the preacher varies.)"

But THIS is a preacher that didn't "vary." THIS is a church that is BUILT on assumptions about race and politics that are very clear. Either Obama subscribes to them (in which case his worldview is questionable), he doesn't care what they are (in which case his Christian discernment is at issue), or he is BLIND to what they are (in which case his OVERALL judgment is questionable.)

"Maybe it's just them being gregarious, or maybe it's that we don't all see things the same way. What say you, Kerry, am I oversimplifying things, or is there an implication here worth considering - that Obama has to think and believe the same way his spiritual leader does, particularly if he doesn't refute some of his leader's beliefs?"

If he's being LED BY someone, it's legitimate to ask what that someone has LED him to, isn't it?

"I'd like to think Obama's shown himself able to think for himself. He's clearly no puppet, IMO. And he did say what he thought about his pastor's words, though - the question is, whether you believe him, those of you who are critical of him not speaking up sooner."

No, I don't. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Instead, I believe what Obama clearly implied yesterday: that Wright exemplifies an older view of the world of race, and he (Obama) represents the future. Then my problem with him is rebellion. You can't publicly rebuke your pastor, no matter how nicely you do it.

"Oh, and doesn't this same question come up with Republican leaders from time to time? Like when what's-his-name visited Bob Jones U., did he denounce their stance on things? No, he didn't."

And didn't he get fired for it? Yes, he did. A Republican only has to APPEAR at the "wrong" place ONE TIME to be wrapped up in everything about it. A Democrat can LIVE the worldview while claiming not to, and still get away with it.

Suppose, just for a minute, that a Republican politician was found to be a MEMBER of the American Nazi party? What would happen then? Would we accept the claim that, while Nazism was kind of a negative thing, as individuals they're pretty good people overall, and the politician never heard the word "Jew" in all the decades he'd been a member?

Of course not.

"One more thing, slightly off-topic - did any of you read or hear what the new NYS guvnor said in his speech?! He admitted infidelity. Think what you will of him, but you gotta admit that what he did takes guts. It was also politically savvy, given what his former boss just got caught doing - attempt to defuse the outgoing administration's absolute stupidity, and also showing his human side. And maybe also inoculating himself (partially) against future accusations by the state employee he cheated on his wife with."

New Democrat governor; same old Democrat "values."

New York is well on its way to becoming Chicago; congratulations, Big Apple.

Look, for the record, I thought Obama gave a terrific speech yesterday. It is very sad to me that I can't vote for this man, because in him I do see someone who might actually be able to mend the rifts of racism in this country. But he's going to appoint judges that will kill babies, and he's still a socialist, and that's the bottom line. I think he does think Wright is right on his theology, but a little harsh in his rhetoric. But I also think he yearns to be that messianic, above-the-fray leader who transcends race and heals the wound.

And I'd prefer he do that in the United States Senate than from the Oval Office, where there are a lot more things to worry about.

I've dibble-dabbled in going to many different sects of Christian churches over the last 10 years....not to be religious or spiritual, but to see what all the hubbub was about. Been to a Methodist, Congregationalist, American Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic....and even a UU. Hell, I even used to go to Southern Baptist BLACK churches in Alabama when I was a Drill at Benning.....with a black Drill buddy.

If I EVER heard the guy/gal start talking in a manner that Wright does in ANY of those churches, I'd have walked out within 20 seconds.......and so would the black Drill I went to the SB church with down south....as it's not what they preached either.

PD....it didn't take guts for the new NY guvna to admit his shortcomings......it was a "nip it in the bud" moment on something that was already dealt with between him and his wife that he didn't want outted by the press.

Nothing more......if it was something new in his relationship/life that she didn't know about....THAT would've taken balls.

It's like saying "I smoked weed a few times...years ago."

"And didn't he get fired for it? Yes, he did. A Republican only has to APPEAR at the "wrong" place ONE TIME to be wrapped up in everything about it. A Democrat can LIVE the worldview while claiming not to, and still get away with it."

Sorry, that should be "fried," not "fired."

"Historically the black church was the only place a black person could express their views. Preacher/Pastors were and still are allowed to voice their opinions (no matter how ignorant) regarding race, politics, economics, crime, etc."

History can't justify this. If this is what's going on in the black church these days, then there's precious little "church" happening at all.

There are plenty of pastors in the black church that DON'T engage in racist rhetoric. Just because some few justify their overt politicking by linking it to the Civil Rights movement doesn't make them right. In fact, it makes them even more wrong.

And, as a matter of fact, when Wright starts talking about Hillary and Barack explicitly, he is breaking the law. A tax-exempt church can engage in issue advocacy, but is (according to the IRS website) absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office.

In other words, he can't talk about Barack, and he can't talk about Hillary. Which he's done. Numerous times. He has endangered the church's tax-exempt status, which could cost the church more than it has (which is the case with most churches. Few large churches could sustain the financial hit that such a loss would represent.)

This isn't just a firestorm for Barack. The Democrats in general don't want to get involved in criticizing this, because their dirty little secret is that they have been facilitating the violation of tax law for YEARS. They overlook the illegality going on because they want the liberal churches to keep talking about them and helping them.

Conservative churches have historically been more careful about this, because they've also been more often called on it. Most conservative pastors know exactly how far they can go. Most liberal churches that engage in politics don't care where the lines are drawn, because no one's going to come after them.

If Hillary goes after this, she won't have the liberal churches to play in for the general election.

"There are plenty of pastors in the black church that DON'T engage in racist rhetoric. Just because some few justify their overt politicking by linking it to the Civil Rights movement doesn't make them right. In fact, it makes them even more wrong."

Please show me in my previous post where I said this was 'right'.

"History can't justify this. If this is what's going on in the black church these days, then there's precious little "church" happening at all."

Please show me in my previous post where I said history justifies this. Yes, this does go in churchs (black and white) all the time.

"And, as a matter of fact, when Wright starts talking about Hillary and Barack explicitly, he is breaking the law. A tax-exempt church can engage in issue advocacy, but is (according to the IRS website) absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for elective public office."

"In other words, he can't talk about Barack, and he can't talk about Hillary. Which he's done. Numerous times. He has endangered the church's tax-exempt status, which could cost the church more than it has (which is the case with most churches. Few large churches could sustain the financial hit that such a loss would represent.)"

He can talk about Sen. Obama because Sen. Obama is a member of the chruch. And last I checked, Rev. Wright wasn't campaigning for Sen. Obama. He was voicing his opinion...which the IRS can do nothing about. I seriously doubt the IRS is going to take away the churches tax exempt status or even seriously consider it. Do you know how many politicians come to churches to campaign during election time? Especially in the black community...promising grants, and faith based programs...if only we'd vote for them... If the IRS does threaten to take away the tax exempt status of the church for what Rev. Wright said, then they need to consider all the voting locations that are in actual churches. How many churches change their weekly activities on the First Tuesday in Novemeber so that the citizens can vote.

Look, my only point is Rev. Wright is one person with an opinion...Just like Rev. Hagee is one person with an opinion. Sen. McCain does not agree with Rev. Hagee's view of the war and why it started but the issue of Sen. McCain accepting Rev. Hagee's support died after 2 or 3 days. Likewise, Sen. Obama does not agree with Rev. Wright's view of race or politics. Opinions are like butt holes...everyone has one.

BTW~

"If he were a racist, would you CHOOSE to spend so much time with him? You don't HAVE to stay in the same church, with the same pastor. And anybody who stays in a church with a racist pastor either doesn't know the pastor's a racist, or doesn't care."

My brother, in my opinion, is a racist. Yes, I do choose to spend as much time with him as I can. My theory is as long as there is a living God and my brother has breath in his body, he can change. You don't kick someone to the curb just because you don't agree with them...you pray for them, try to be an example for them and keep going.

There's a difference between choosing to sit in a church for 20 years listening to racist drivel from the pulpit.....and receiving an endorsement from someone.

as in.....I don't care that Obama received the support/endorsement of the new Black Panthers...which even the SPLC calls a hate group. I DO care that he proudly displays that support on his campaign webpage as they are filled with racist thugs with an atrocious unAmerican and anti-American manifesto.

...an my sister's racist too.....but she's not allowed to voice that shit around me because I tell her so to her face.....and she doesn't. Not quite the same as having a racist as a pastor/spiritual mentor.

Kerry,

Here's an interesting link that 'justifies' the historic role of the black church.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/124270/page/1

I know you don't like MSM but it might answer some of the questions you have...if your quest for anwers are sincere. Be ye warned, you are not going to like the answers. But just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean they are not correct nonetheless.

Thanks,

Did I miss the part where it says black pastors are supposed to get their followers all in a frenzy about the U.S. government A.K.A. "rich white people"...lying about "inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color"? (ironically, every group that HIV has hit has made the same claim.....the U.S. government gave homosexuals HIV during HepB studies...gave it to Africans in a botched polio vaccine....gave it to IV drug users because who really cares about them....

I've been to many a "black church sermon"....about 200 of 'em.....and they didn't seem to make up "rich white people" conspiracies to get their followers into an anti-whitey frenzy. They preached a Christian way of life......and then had kick ass BBQ.

Wright's a racist asshole.

Sarge, You are making my point...at the end of the day Rev. Wright is one person with an opinion. People know how to seperate biblical preaching/teaching from personal opinion.

I love it when people claim I'm making their point when, very clearly, I am not.

"At the end of the day"....that racist and lying anti-American POS is the spiritual advisor to his entire flock.....and they llisten to him.

He greatly influences the opinions of those he preaches to and when he says incorrect and insanely racist shit.....they believe it. Not ALL of 'em....but many/most.

When he lies, to get his followers into the anti-whitey anti-America frenzy, that the U.S. government created HIV to commit genocide on black people and the congregation nod along with an "Amen.....that's right....you tell it"...it's EXACTLY the same reaction the black folks had in the black Baptist church I attended in AL for a few years......only they were agreeing with actual Biblical sermon stuff on how to live your life better, not racist anti-American drivel.

Notice, he doesn't claim that they did this with HIV.....he claims that they lied about doing it....thusly, they did it, lied about it, and someone somewhere either proved they did or the government admitted that the they did it. That's a great tactic that gets the listener to believe, without proof, a baseless accusation. That's a very simple elementary debate tactic.

......and those listening believed it....as you can hear them chanting in agreement.

Don't for a second try an tell me that he's just "one man with an opinion" and that his extra-Biblical opinions aren't absorbed by those ignorant masses listening to his racist crap.

You give "People" too much intellectual credit. People as a whole are generally ignorant of most things outside their pathetic little lives and are thusly open for manipulation.........especially in inner cities.

Population Psychology 101 stuff....best non-major class I ever took.

"He can talk about Sen. Obama because Sen. Obama is a member of the chruch."

No, he can't. Not if he is talking about his attempt to get elected.

"And last I checked, Rev. Wright wasn't campaigning for Sen. Obama."

Yes, in fact, he was. When he disparages Hillary Clinton, a candidate for elective office, he is breaking the law.

"He was voicing his opinion...which the IRS can do nothing about."

Wrong. The IRS code is very clear about this. Pastor Wright and his church have their tax exemption under the understanding that they (and he, as a representative of the church) will NOT support or discourage others from supporting any candidate for elective office.

"I seriously doubt the IRS is going to take away the churches tax exempt status or even seriously consider it. Do you know how many politicians come to churches to campaign during election time? Especially in the black community...promising grants, and faith based programs...if only we'd vote for them..."

Then maybe it's time that stopped. It's against the law, and it's a bad witness to willingly flout the law.

"If the IRS does threaten to take away the tax exempt status of the church for what Rev. Wright said, then they need to consider all the voting locations that are in actual churches."

No, because there are laws about that, too. A polling place can be in a church AND cannot have "electioneering" going on there, anyway. So there's no way that your objection would stand. Since the electioneering laws exist, the polling place is unaffected by being in a church. There is no violation.

"How many churches change their weekly activities on the First Tuesday in Novemeber so that the citizens can vote."

I don't know. Who cares? That has nothing to do with the EXISTING RULES for having a tax-exampt status as a church. And it does not support or hinder any candidate for elective office. If anything, the church is doing the state a favor by offering its location as a sign of good citizenship.

"Look, my only point is Rev. Wright is one person with an opinion...Just like Rev. Hagee is one person with an opinion."

And that's a nice point, but it's only half right. John Hagee is endorsing Senator McCain as a private individual, not as the leader of his church or as the spokesman for his ministry. He is not talking about McCain from the pulpit. He is not doing anything as part of his ministry to influence his followers to support or oppose any candidate for elective office.

Jeremiah Wright spoke FROM THE PULPIT, in his official capacity as the Pastor of a tax-exempt church, supporting Barack Obama and opposing Hillary Clinton, as candidates for elective office. That is flatly, unquestionably, and overtly ILLEGAL.

"Sen. McCain does not agree with Rev. Hagee's view of the war and why it started but the issue of Sen. McCain accepting Rev. Hagee's support died after 2 or 3 days."

As it should. It's interesting, but has no legal relevance. Wright, on the other hand, whether he personally knew Obama or not, has clearly violated the tax laws.

"Likewise, Sen. Obama does not agree with Rev. Wright's view of race or politics."

Which, actually, is only relevant to Obama's chances of becoming president, not to Wright's tax-exempt status. And I suppose if you believe that, he's home free. I don't believe it. We'll see what happens from here.

""If he were a racist, would you CHOOSE to spend so much time with him? You don't HAVE to stay in the same church, with the same pastor. And anybody who stays in a church with a racist pastor either doesn't know the pastor's a racist, or doesn't care.""

"My brother, in my opinion, is a racist. Yes, I do choose to spend as much time with him as I can. My theory is as long as there is a living God and my brother has breath in his body, he can change. You don't kick someone to the curb just because you don't agree with them...you pray for them, try to be an example for them and keep going."

You don't take your preaching from someone whose MIND you are praying to CHANGE! Your Pastor is supposed to be teaching YOU. If he's an unreconstructed racist, WHY ARE YOU THERE?

"Here's an interesting link that 'justifies' the historic role of the black church."

Thanks for the Newsweek article, but there's nothing in it I didn't already know. I'm not concerned with whether the remarks are part of a historical thread. I don't care if the people who say them believe them. I don't care what other people said in the 1800s. What I am concerned about is that this pastor, in this church, flagrantly broke the law. And I am concerned that Barack Obama pretends he did not know what was being preached in his church for 20 years. I would have been much more comfortable had he said, "Oh, sure. I heard him say that lots of times. He gets kind of carried away. But I don't agree with his politics"--instead of "I never heard those remarks." Because now I think Barack is a lying politician.

"I know you don't like MSM but it might answer some of the questions you have...if your quest for anwers are sincere. Be ye warned, you are not going to like the answers."

What "answers" do you think this provided? Or what "questions" do you think I have? There's nothing in there I didn't learn decades ago at the feet of Manning Marable and Darlene Hines-Johnson.

Bottom line: Jeremiah Wright broke the law, and the tax-exempt status of that church should be revoked. Actually, I'd rather see a settlement reached. A warning of some kind. Because revocation would kill most churches. And I'm sure that church does a lot of community good, and the people who are the recipients of that have to be dealt with in a way that doesn't punish them for something that is not their fault. I don't know what the answer is there, but I do know that unless the law changes, he can't be allowed to get away with that kind of politicking from the pulpit.

"Opinions are like butt holes...everyone has one."

One usually assumes so. However, apparently, this poor woman now has two! (Does that make her a moderate?)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,339270,00.html

:-)

Sarge, My intent was not to offend you. My apologies. I guess I read something different into your responses.

As far as me giving people too much intellectual credit...well, i happen to believe that people do have the ability to "think" for themselves. Their personal experience as well as their limited knowledge always shape a persons opinions. You're no different.

Rev. Wright is one man with one opinion. The funny thing about this is anyone who has heard of Rev. Wright before now already knew how he felt about America, American Politics and the government as a whole. I would have thought that this would have been the FIRST thing to come out early in the campign. This was only a 'shock' to you (not you personally...you in the general sense)because Sen. Obama is a member there. I can tell you. There are many, many preaches and intellectuals who do not disagree with Rev. Wright. The only difference is his sermon as put on youtube and Presidental hopeful belongs to the church.

We are not 'shocked' that Sen. Obama joined that church or sat under that pastor for 20 years. The chruch that Rev. Wright pastored was and still is the primary grass roots location for the issues that B. Obama believed in and worked for prior to becoming Sen. Obama. There are very few church in that community that offer the programming for citizens that UCC offers. AND they offer that assistance with primarily through the gifts of the members as well as business. He may be a racist but he's no hypocrite. And he shows that by not seeking out the governmental assistance that he believes has held his people back.

Kerry,

I'm going to admit that I haven't watch the youtube sermon of Rev. Wright. I've only seen the news clips and the sound bites. In Rev. Wright's rant, did he say anything close to VOTE FOR OBAMA...OBAMA for President? I haven't seen that or heard (but i already said I didn't watch the sermon on youtube). I'm just trying to figure out when his 'rant' became campaigning.

I think the issue here is that fact that Sen. Obama belongs to a church and pubically said he would not denounce the church or the pastor because the 'world' sees them as racist and unpatriotic.

As for the foxnews link....YUK! Who was that doctor?

BTW- Have a good weekend...Happy Resurrection Sunday!

HE IS RISEN!

He is risen, indeed.

By the way, I don't usually mess with Wikipedia, but it's the only place I could find a list of superdelegates. Anyway, mooching around there, I discovered that James Zogby (yes, THAT James Zogby) is a member of the DNC, and a superdelegate for Barack Obama.

Don't you think they ought to mention that once in a while?