Two words: Grendal's mother.

Grendel. damnit.

fact remains the surge has done nothing but postpone the powder keg from blowing up. The reconciliation within the government is just not happening. Why because Bush and company aren't diplomats, and they know nothing about Iraq (that was clear from day one). So we have basically put ourselves in a position where we can never leave, because military force is a band aid and not the cure....which requires more political skill than these amateurs can muster.

Ahmanrah,

What are you going to do when we win?

It seems there are two positions on Iraq these days: "The surge is working," and "The sky is falling."

I'll go with Petraeus, McCain, Bush, and Rice over Rosie O'Donnell, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and the 911 Truthers.

Kerry,

Iraq isn't a prize to be won. We can't control the outcome to this conflict with bullets. And we can't bend the Middle East to our will, just like the Soviet Union couldn't control the Eastern block countries forever. They are ultimately going to do what they want, when they want, and the best we can do is tutor them, not lord over them with our rifles for the next 100 years like McCain would like.

Perhaps one of these days you will understand. But you might start by reading the book Three Cups of Tea. Here is a perfect example of a guy, an American no less, who without firing a shot, basically has given the Taliban the middle finger for the last 10 years, by being a "better Muslim" to the tribal people he's been helping than the Taliban or the Pakistani government ever had. And he did it first by respecting them, and second by helping them educate their kids, and especially the girls in the villages (something particularly irksome to the Taliban), and in general helping to improve their lives. And in return they protect him from the Taliban, because they inherently are good people. And most surprisingly of all was where his biggest support of all came from, at least politically...the Mullah's of Iran. Who basically told all the local Shia leaders in Northern Iran (some who had issued fatwas against him) to stay the fuck out of his way, because they approve of what he was doing, particularly helping educate and train women).

Now of course if you listened to all the propaganda out there about Islam and Muslims, you should be shocked if he wasn't gunned down the first day he started, or kidnapped by an Iranian agent (particularly given where he was operating).

But not surprising to me at all, he walked into the region. Saw what things were like, and rather than expect them to live his life style, follow his god, follow American style politics,...he gave them what they already knew they needed, and they were far more loyal to him then they ever would be to the Taliban or other Muslim extremists.

Bush and Republicans could learn alot of lessons from him about turning hearts and mind against Muslim terrorists, but as long they keep their heads up their asses, we will keep making mistakes like those that plague us in Iraq.

That should be Northern Pakistan, not Northern Iran.

"Iraq isn't a prize to be won."

I've been mulling this over for a while. At first I couldn't figure out why you would go there. Nobody said anything about a "prize." I don't think of "prizes" when I think about winning the war.

But I think I get it now. You are of a generation that no longer understands the notion of "winning" in the context of "right," only in the context of getting something. You "win" the lottery. You "win" a contest. You always get something out of it.

We aren't in it to win a PRIZE. We are in it to DEFEAT an ENEMY. And that doesn't necessarily end up all that well for us. And it doesn't have to. If the Iraqi people end up with a free and stable state, and all we got was this lousy camo t-shirt AND the world in which Iraq is a free and stable society, we still will have WON. And--though it is nearly impossible for people of your mindset to believe--it will be well worth the blood and treasure spent to get there. Not because we end up better off, or richer, or stronger, or even safer. Not because we win a "prize." But because good triumphs over evil, and the right thing is done.

Too many people in this nation have lost all comprehension of what war and honor and winning are about. For most people, there's nothing worth giving everything for.

And that's just sad.

....and anyone that likens ANYTHING we're doing with what the U.S.S.R did with Eastern Bloc countries is just flame throwing the United States for without thinking.

The U.S.S.R. took over countries and controlled every aspect of the lives, jobs, property, and economies or their People with the Iron Fist.

We are ddoing nothing of the sort. Right or wrong, we're trying to change the region so it can live in a modern relatively civil world instead of being stuck 400+ years in the past.....not to take it over and control it like you "American Imperialism" and "just like the U.S.S.R." whiners like to try to claim.

Sarge is right. I mean, honestly, who in the world could possibly believe that we want to try to control another country? Can you IMAGINE? We have enough trouble trying to get people to behave right here!

Seriously, there is no way that we would ever want to have Soviet-style control over another country--even the Democrats aren't interested in that.

Sarge, Kerry

Who cares what you, or I think, its what the Iraqi think, and they and every other Muslim in the middle east have said they will not tolerate outsiders manipulating them. So in that sense the Soviet example is quite appropriate.

You want a flame thrower Sarge, a flame thrower is McCain telling the Iraqi he thinks we are going to be there for the next 100 years!

Oh and since we have a long record of financing Middle East dictators from the Shan and Mubarak, to the Kings of Saudi Arabia and Saddam Hussein I doubt many in the Middle East are that confident that that 100 years will be in their interest, before it is in ours.

The ironic thing about this whole mess is that the American I told you in that book is fighting against the Whahabbi in Saudi Arabia, who due to the oil wealth we have largely given them, are able to build "terrorist maddrasses", alot faster than he can build schools to combat then. So we are basically fighting against ourselves in Pakistan. And the more money we give Saudis for their oil the more they can use to build schools to train terrorists. Almost like sending tanks to Hilter.

My favorite dictator was the Shan.

He displaced Sam the Sham and the Pharoahs.

That's the best you can do is crack a joke?

Why don't you try something a little harder, like explaining to us, and more importantly the Iraqis why they should trust or expect the US to help them, when we never helped them in the past.

Iraq...prizes...winning. How do you right-wingers define "win" in the Iraq war?

Is it when all Iraqis lay down their arms, praise America and American troops, and toss flowers at their feet? Or merely when we've killed enough of 'em to pacify the rest? Peace at the end of a gun barrel?

Is it when the rest of the Middle-east says, "America is Great!" and stop their own conflicts? Is there any evidence this could ever occur? These people blow themselves up because they think it'll wind them up in heaven!

Is it when reconstruction is finished? You know how far off that is (Petraeus's little white lie notwithstanding.)

Is it when the oil fields have been denationalized, and placed safely in the hands of foreign (American) energy multinationals?

Stop asking lefties to define "win," and define it yourselves. Clearly, succinctly, and rhetoric-free. Let's hear your version of it.

pd...while ranting on your spoon-fed bumper-sticker rhetoric.....you forgot to engage the brain and think without your negative feeeeeeeeelings getting in the way. Oh so typical. BTW...You forgot to mention Hallybuuuuurton.

Why does it have to do with the ridiculous extremes? No.....American oil companies are not currently and will never sieze control of Iraqi oil. No, the People of the Middle East are not going to throw down their guns and praise America. Awwwww....but then you'd not have that pathetic talking point to throw around....

How about:

"When Iraq (and the rest of the region) has left the 17th century mentality of controlling the People through the use of barbaric tribal/sectarian violence and wants to play nice-nice with the modern civil world....complete with modern rights and freedoms."

Meaning........a hundred more years, as the M-E is going to be the next big fat world war and it'll last for a looooooong time because "they" do not fight wars like the rest of us do..."they" use civilians and target civilians.

.....or whenever a nukyular weapon is used against big bad America. While you lib-asses talk about how we reaped what we had sewn just like with every other attack on us that was deemed "our fault", we will retaliate in-kind times 10 and just take care of the problem.

It's been 30 years thus far and it'll be many many decades to come.

Why Sarge,

You've adopted your speeeeeking-to-liiibbbbberaaaalls tone for me, how nice.

No.....American oil companies are not currently and will never sieze control of Iraqi oil.

In February of this year, the Iraqi cabinet approved the American-drafted Iraqi hydrocarbon law ... which cedes control over nearly 80% of Iraq's oil fields to foreign energy corporations. It is an unusual move, given that most countries control their own oil fields, hiring energy and engineering firms to run them -- paying them out of generated revenues.

This law, on the other hand, gives full control of the 80% of fields to foreign companies, including the gross revenue stream. Iraq gets its cut on the backside, as tax. The law was first proposed by the Bush administration in '04, but was hinted at in energy industry publications in late '02 and early '03. The remaining 21.25% of the fields will be allocated to Iraq's provinces.

"When Iraq (and the rest of the region) has left the 17th century mentality of controlling the People through the use of barbaric tribal/sectarian violence and wants to play nice-nice with the modern civil world....complete with modern rights and freedoms."

It's hard to tell who's more barbaric - them, for being the way they've been since the 17th century and before, or us, for gunning down anyone who doesn't behave? Two peas from the same pod.

...we will retaliate in-kind times 10 and just take care of the problem.

Oh yay, that problem's ass is grass!! We kicked their asses, and now they're peaceful, happy and kind - that's what we want, isn't it? Or is it just compliance looking over the barrel of a gun?

Things are gonna be all kinds of rosy after we're done in Iraq, oh yeah.

It's been 30 years thus far and it'll be many many decades to come.

Yup, I don't disagree. So long as there's oil in the M-E, and the locals don't want us there, we'll be there with guns to ensure the flow of oil. Same deal in Nigeria, Indonesia, etc. Subtract oil from the picture - would we be in Iraq? Unlikely.

Like I didn't know about that law and didn't know you were gonna spew about it without understanding it, passed the War for Oil "See, they're taking the oil" mantra... That particular law is one of the finest laws to come out of the council thus far, you just can't see the forest because of your lone War for Oil tree.

It does a few things never before had in the M-E.....and that's not "allowing foreign companies to suck the oil out of the ground for a guaranteed profit" (PSA)...as Saddam did that very thing with the Russians and Chinese in the 90s to help him with his food-for-oil scam. This law helps remove the drive towards a dictatorship as the oil $$$$ will not be directly controlled by centralized State government. It also...for the first time....guarantees that oil $$$$ goes to regions/municipalities on a per capita basis. As your ignorant ass didn't think of, the Sunnis are in a oil-less region which is why they essentially HAD to take over the government in order to get oil $$$$$ or any power that comes with it. Not so anymore. Now the $$$$$ will go to the People, by region, instead of for building $$bajillion palaces with 24K gold toilets for the ruthless dictator......minus 12.5% for the companies' guaranteed profits, of course. HOW HORRIBLE!!!!! In addition, it allows modern oil companies to bring in modern equipment to replace their old-ass and sabotaged shit at no cost to the government. AND, it's not like Iraqi oil before America came in was "national".....it was more private than ANY other resource known to man with only a few elite sharing the $$$$$ and the People getting absolutely nothing. No necessary infrastructure updates....nothing but poverty on the outside of the bajillion dollar palaces' walls.

As one you probably detest, Christopher Hitchens has it right: "Control over the production and distribution of oil is the decisive factor in defining who rules whom in the Middle East." The minority Sunnis siezed control of the oil $$$$$ and brutally ran the country for decades. This law is going to try to minimize that factor.

Actually......was this law even passed by the parliament? I know it went passed the council of ministers...but lost interest after that.

It's hard to tell who's more barbaric - them, for being the way they've been since the 17th century and before, or us, for gunning down anyone who doesn't behave? Two peas from the same pod.

There's the pathetic troop hating asshole. Yeah....you "care" about the troops you're bashing. Very plainly...fuck off.

Oh yay, that problem's ass is grass!! We kicked their asses, and now they're peaceful, happy and kind - that's what we want, isn't it? Or is it just compliance looking over the barrel of a gun?

Ooooo....the 12 y.o. has entered the building....how cute. I also should've made the disclaimer that if it's a Democrat President when the nuke hits us.....he will lob a tomahawk into an empty tent in the desert and claim that it was all taken care of. We are a good People....but don't push the wrong button or you'll reap whatever wrath we invent....and we've got some fukin'-A smart guys working on ways to screw your world up. You nuke us for 1 million dead....we're gonna take out 10 times that...minimum. That's simply reality. Your lib ass would sit around and whine about it.

Good to see that you conveniently forget about the terrorists coming out of the M-E for 30 years to kill Americans.......oil oil oil pigeon-holes your thought. We'll "win" this world war once Islam reforms itself like the rest of the major religions have done. Until then, they will not fit in with the modern world. Really.....gonna kill people because of a cartoon?

Don't know what that'll take or how long.....but it just might take a few retaliatory nukes. Of course, it might also take the freedoom they've never had.

Curing extremism is like curing Alcoholism, it can only be done by the people with the problem, after they realize they have a problem. We can surely help them, but pointing a gun at their head doesn't help them, if anything it does the opposite.

And it doesn't help that most Americans, including the right wingers on this board, don't know the difference between Al-Qaeda, a Shiite militiaman, and a Sunni insurgent. That ignorance is destroy our effectiveness in solving this problem.

Sarge,

The problem is you are trying to force reform from without, and Christians reformed from within. Everyone knows that when you try to force people to do something, they are going to rally around their flag, or rally around their faith, and ignore you. Muslims have to reform themselves, we can't do it.

And frankly as I have pointed out before, we aren't setting ourselves up as a very good role model, when we support dictators all around the Middle East and yet spout off about democracy. If half these countries had democracies, something tells me, they'd be democracies we wouldn't approve of. And some moronic republican would want to go and bomb them into oblivion.

And Christopher Hitchens is right. But I am surprised you wouldn't think the Administration would have in mind for itself the point Christopher made. So they would be all about trying to ensure that American oil companies and America in general was in control of the oil spiggot, and thus writing laws that favor America, which is PD's very point.

The question is then, are we going to be improvement over a grubby dictator's hands as far as the Iraqi people are concerned. Probably, but will the new laws favor Iraqis as much as they should...I seriously doubt they will.

"The problem is you are trying to force reform from without, and Christians reformed from within."

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I don't think the Apostle Paul would particularly agree with it.

It's hard to tell who's more barbaric - them, for being the way they've been since the 17th century and before, or us, for gunning down anyone who doesn't behave? Two peas from the same pod.

I just gotta say again.......you are a grade-D asshole.

ahmanrah, you're alcoholism analogy works against you.

A) Alcoholism isn't "cured"....ever. Neither will Islamic extremism ever be "cured" so long as the Qu'ran says what it says and people follow it verbatim as the direct word of Allah.

B) SOME alcoholics need an outside force to show them the way through interventions, arrests, forced counselling, and monitoring. SOME people who live in a violent region of the world that seeps into the modern civil world....need to be shown the error of their ways.....need to be shown a better life than living under the boot of Islamofascism.

C) The vast majoritiy of alcoholics cannot remain sober without outside help. Those "over there" that yearn for freedom and a better form of government/life, just might need outside help to keep it going until the enemies of such change are no more.

....but I get what you were trying to say.

Islamic violence will still not stop until the entire religion reforms itself. When Islam no longer treats the Qu'ran as the direct word of Allah, to be strictly followed, THEN they will reform with a sort of new testament of their book that removes the violence towards the unbelievers. Until then, they will follow 9:005

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Sarge,

I don't have much faith that extremism will be cured. Look at the developed world, we still have fanatics on both the left and the right, and we call ourselves modern. All you can do is control extremism, and the best way to control it is to always ensure that it never looks more enticing than the alternatives. And part of ensuring that is educating people so they are less susceptible to being manipulated by propaganda, and economic hardship.

Kerry, I couldn't care what Paul said. Early Christianity was as bad in some ways as the Taliban...and some pockets of this extremism still remain, just waiting to break out. That said the reformation I am talking about came about within Europe, and happened because Europeans, and not some outside power decided things had to change. This was the birth of secularism, which frankly is the sanity and reason that separates us from experiencing the same fanaticism the Muslims are experiencing now.

Muslims need their own secular revolution, and us kicking them in the ribs, and shout you must be like us, isn't going to make it happen any faster.

Sarge,

One point I forgot to mention, which really goes back to my entire point for starting on this thread. I totally agree with you that Muslims need our help. But its my belief that what that guy in Pakistan is doing, building schools that will allow the poor there to educate themselves, and thus fight the draw of extremism, will be far more effective in the long run, then us rampaging across the Middle East dropping bombs.

But there is no way to expand what that guy is doing as long as people come in with their own agendas and ulterior motives, like spreading Christianity, American culture, etc. I am entirely convinced the reason he has been so successful is because he went in there and listened to them, and helped them fix problems they knew they had, rather than preaching to them. And its definitely the reason the Shia Mullah's left him alone because they did thorough check before giving their blessing to make sure all he was doing was helping with basic education, and not filling their heads with Western political ideas or proselytizing.

And like I said above for his efforts thousands of people became extremely loyal to him, to the point they became his body guards, and would die to protect him from elements like the Taliban.

There is a lesson to be learned in all this and I hope someone with brains and power takes notice.

BTW the book takes place from 1995-2004(5) approximately, in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan. And if anyone knows anything about the frontiers areas of Pakistan and especially Afghanistan. If you're an American, especially one not knowing what you're doing, you had (and still do) of getting yourself killed during that period. So the fact that this guy worked regularly doing that time frame for months in these areas each year, should tell you the protection his efforts brought him, despite the BS out there that Muslims would die for a fellow Muslim before protecting an infidel. They frankly are like any other rational human on Earth. They will protect those who help them the most,before just blindly follow some Muslim fanatics desire to destroy all infidels.

We'll "win" this world war once Islam reforms itself like the rest of the major religions have done. Until then, they will not fit in with the modern world. Really.....gonna kill people because of a cartoon?

Don't know what that'll take or how long.....but it just might take a few retaliatory nukes. Of course, it might also take the freedoom they've never had.

I'm glad we're finally on the same page about this, Sarge. We should totally nuke their butts. Of course, that would make it harder to extract oil from Iraq -- but, like you pointed out, that's not why we're really there. A few megatons and a half million years, Iraq'll be ready for subdivisions.

I'm gonna follow your lead and believe only Oval Office and Pentagon press releases -- safer that way, probably do a lot to protect us all from terrorists, not being distracted by all these dissenting facts.

And maybe once we've nuked Iraq, we can just invade Saudi Arabia. A repressive, oil-producing regime that needs changing like yesterday's underwear. And just like Iraq, we'll probably fake up some WMD when the time comes - that, or maybe we'll sell 'em some first, then invade long after the WMDs' expiration date. We'll be saved! Saved!! Oh thank you George Bush, thank you!!

Anybody who thinks nuking another part of the world is a solution, hasn't thought a whole lot about the problem.

ahmanrah,

In any resource war, there will be battlefield decisions made by the accountants. In the case of Iraq, we see a cumulative cost, including interest on all the $100s of billions of debt issued, topping $3 trillion at present.

Therefore, isn't it just a simple matter to fix the federal budget deficit? By lobbing a couple of Mk. 21 thermonukes onto Baghdad, Damascus, Tripoli, etc., we'll see "peace" in the Mideast in no time at all. Nanoseconds, in fact.

Sure the air'll be dirty to breath for a few hundred thousand years, but the point is that we'll have won. That's all that matters: to win is to be right. When you've won, you get to be considered "right." After all, isn't history written by the winners?

PD,

Yah until the fallout cloud passes over the US, and Iraq isn't the only country producing still born babies with one eye. Yah we'll have won alright.

By the way, if nobody is aware of what I am referring to above. One of the effects the Russians discovered as a result of radioactive contamination south of its detonation site was cyclops babies.

Nukes are bad enough, and the ultimate example of people pissing in their own pool, not realizing they are doing as much damage in the long run to themselves as they are the enemy. Already pointed this out of course when someone broad up the stupid idea that we'd just nuke the Chinese if it came to war with them.

Pissing into the wind would probably be a better analogy now that I think about it.

Jeeze, the bleeding-heart lib'rals all show up here, don't they Sarge? ahmanrah, what matters most is that we're victorious. Victory! Say it in the morning upon rising, when you travel to work, and before saying the evening prayers. Say it with pride (and not the gay variety.)

Forget about stupid lib'ral nuances such as "criteria" for victory. What matters here is the perception of voters, particularly the ones who can be influenced.

Sometime between now and Nov 4th, you should fully expect to see our fearless leader, W, standing on carrier flight deck in jumpsuit, or sitting behind an anti-aircraft battery, or just chasing tumbleweeds down in Crawford -- with a banner stating that our glorious mission in Iraq has concluded: "Victory!" To benefit McCain, of course.

PD,

I wonder if Bush would have the guts to try that on a street in central Baghdad.

ahmanrah,

You know what? I changed my mind - you are exactly right. The scene you described shoud be the real criteria for victory in Iraq.

If Bush can walk down any street in Baghdad, and find that his plan to "spread freedom and liberty" had worked well enough that he remain unmolested, well I'll eat my hat AND vote Republican in the next election.

Put your money where your mouth is!