I agree, hand raising is for school children, not presidential candidates.

I have a question for you Kerry, why did they throw Alan Keyes up there? "The Repubican Debate Live from Iowa with Needless guest, Alan Keyes" Why?

SSE,

Amazingly, I agree with you. Alan Keyes did not belong on that stage, any more than any of those other people that are filed as presidential candidates but no one knows are running. He was ridiculous. I think losing to Barack Obama actually drove him completely insane. He used to be a great orator and a brilliant man, but I think his political frustration has driven him across the genius/madness line for good.

As to why he was there (and Kucinich and Gravel won't be with the Democrats today), Iowa public tv claims that he met their criteria, which are as follows:

"The criteria include: 1) an FEC statement of candidacy; 2) having an Iowa campaign staffer and Iowa campaign office as of October 1; and 3) registering at least at 1% in the October Des Moines Register poll."

So that's the deal with that.

Go FRED!

I'm surprised he even got 1%.

"I'm surprised he even got 1%."

What would that be in the Des Moines register poll? Maybe he brought his own bus!

Too bad Fred all-too-clearly violated his previous oath of office and the United States Constitution by legislating anti-"free speech" blackout periods against the People.......evidently "Congress shall make no law...." means that Congress CAN make the law....but they just gotta say "oops" afterwards and all should be OK. "Gimme another chyance...."

Were worrying about this subject why, when we are discovering in fact the one word "waterboarding" that the administration didn't want to discuss actually occurred. I wonder what other "intense" interrogation techniques they also don't want us to discover, are going on.

ahmanrah,

I'm sure this will come as no surprise, but I don't CARE if we use waterboarding. In fact, I hope we do use it, a lot. I don't think it's "torture." I think putting someone in the Iron Maiden is "torture." Or stretching their limbs until they break. Or--how bout this one? Feeding them to the crocs while Uday and Qusay stand by and giggle?

Terrorists should be dealt with harshly. If it takes waterboarding, so be it.

I just don't see why the liberals can't shut up and let us WIN THIS WAR!

I move to waterboard amanarahahra

The only damage done by waterboarding is the humiliation suffered for giving up information without having been really really actually tortured.

Go on....I dare ya to say that waterboarding never got us any actionable information.

Has it?

And would it have been information IMPOSSIBLE to get any other way?

How many times has it been done to people who don't have any credible information, who are not terrorists? Where do you draw the line with its practices? Aren’t these are all viable questions, or does it not matter, because all of the practices of this "interrogation method" must be righteous since they’re “protecting our country”? Just some questions I have, since if it's not torture, at least we can agree it's not a Sunday walk in the park...

Has it?

Ask Zayn Abu Zubaida.....broke in 35 seconds after lesser/lamer methods were used for a few weeks.

And would it have been information IMPOSSIBLE to get any other way?

Really? Ask him nicely today....sooooooper nicely tomorrow? "Please Mr. Terrorist....pretty-please tell us where your buddies are."

It's about a spectrum. On one side you have putting a gun to his head (or even his buddy is better...tell him he's next)...dipping the bullets in pig's blood and pulling the trigger......(or fill in with more vulgar forms of torture if you choose). On the other side, you've got asking him nicely.

Between the 2 everyone falls in a different ideology for each different circumstance. I fall in the category of "if it doesn't cause lasting mental/physical injuries...no...a slap is not an injury causing event.......I don't give a shit what they do. Waterboarding does exactly zero damage to terrorist scum....so I don't care.

Now...circumstances change.....terrorist has a nuke and you've got one hour to find it. NOW how much torture do you condone? If you STILL don't condone ANY, well, you're freely signing the death certificates of thousands of Americans.

How about someone has your daughter buried with one hour of air......what do you personally accept the police doing to the guy to find her? I'd bet you'd change your tune really quickly.

Depending on the situation.....there's a whole lot I don't mind my country doing to protect its own....but then again, I was trained to kill my enemy without asking a single quesition......sucha friggin barbaric mind-set.

Questions of the unknown...such a great tactic. Let's see....I don't know.....I don't know....it's situational....

If you wanna call it torture...fine....call it torture.....now THAT changes everything. "It's torture!!!" I'll call "torture" things that "have lasting physical/mental damage".....I don't care if a terrorist will never again go in the pool because he now fears drowning.

Gee....can we sleep deprive for days on end? Can we play shitty music to 'em non-stop? Can we break 'em in ANY manner?

Alright sure, that can be understood, but what about those people that are interogated in this manner that are not "terrorists"? Where is the line drawn? You answered my questions on effectivness, but what if the person is not a terrorist? That's when I'd wonder about this practice.

More importantly, what are the factors that limit the practice? If you're to claim the legitimacy of the method, you have to know there are limits to when, and in which situation, and on who it is to be used. We certainly aren't going to make it an interogation method used on suspects in all crimes, where does it stop?

SSE,

If we find you on the battlefield, engaged in war against American or allied forces, I say we have every right to extract information from you, regardless of how difficult you make it for us.

"More importantly, what are the factors that limit the practice? If you're to claim the legitimacy of the method, you have to know there are limits to when, and in which situation, and on who it is to be used. We certainly aren't going to make it an interogation method used on suspects in all crimes, where does it stop?"

I think the number of people who should know the answers to those questions is very very small. It's not in the interest of the security of this nation for the press and/or the public to have this information. Leave it to the people whose business it is to carry it out.

If we find you on the battlefield,

That's not a very specific area, especially regarding the "war on terror", it could be an entire country!

Leave it to the people whose business it is to carry it out.

This sounds so stupid; what if they're doing something "wrong"? That is not an acceptable answer. So you don't hold them accountable, what the heck?

See my concern is not really much about the act itself but my concern lies with on whom and how much this method is used. If it how you want it is Kerry, it's inevitable that there would be problems.

Rewriting that last sentence: If it's left in the hands of these people (whose business it is), enviably there will be “issues” without any accountability.

Rewriting that last sentence: If it's left in the hands of these people (whose business it is), enviably there will be “issues” without any accountability.

You seem to have the notion in your head that this practice is performed on everyone we take into custody.....like there isn't a triage process that weeds out the minorly involved guy that simple gets caught with an AK-47 in his closet.....that they don't specifically select the real terrorists/combatants to be harshly interrogated from the simple farmer that isn't. I disagree with that notion.

You also seem to think that there is no oversight in the matter....as in...that the Congressional Intelligence Oversight Committee was and is not briefed about it....when they WERE briefed on the matter and didn't seem to mind THEN (9/2002).....but do now when there's a Presidential election around the corner and the People won't smack 'em for being so seemingly anti-American so close to 9/11. Get's their shitty Congressional year out of the news to point at all this stuff.

Just because YOU, a non security clearance holding civilian, don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

There is also the question of "them" "doing" something "wrong".

....ummm...."they" "do" "wrong" things every single minute. "They" break international laws every single minute in the name of their country. Espionage is still illegal in most countries. As is murder...and I'd be willing to bet that our operatives hyave killed foreinors in the past and present........in the name of the United States.....and I don't care one whit.

Really....I don't care if they waterboard EVERY prisoner....I just don't, as it does not cause mental or physical damage....and I mean real damage....not..."Muhammad won't ever go swimming ever again." To further it.....I really don't care if "they" are using really real torture either....but only if there's a proper selection process as to who gets it........and do you really think they don't have a good selection process? Or do you believe terrorists in prison who are claiming that the were just harmless farmers that got caught up in a raid?

....but I'm a government trained barbarian, so my mindset is quite different than most....trained to get it done and worry about the politicians and civilians later.

Or do you believe terrorists in prison who are claiming that the were just harmless farmers that got caught up in a raid?

Is that not even a slight possibility?

...That they aren't "terrorists", that is.

Nobody can be 100% certain of ANYthing....but I'm not giving too much credence to guys caught fighting our troops that're currently in Gitmo...when they claim to be falsely accused of doing that which they were caught doing.

You were them, you'd make false claims too.

....but I'm a government trained barbarian, so my mindset is quite different than most....trained to get it done and worry about the politicians and civilians later.

Hehe, I think you're being just a bit sarcastic Conan, but I wouldn't have it any other way, I'm not against the use of force when needed.

I'm sure a lot of the guilty parties are saying they're goat herders or farmers, I don't doubt that.

Hell Sarge, at least you explain your rationale in a straight forward way, sometimes folks on here don't give the answers in that fashion. I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. Thank you.

Actually....I'm not being very sarcastic at all. Fort Benning School for Boys ripped the 140lb science nerd outta me and put the 185lb barian in its place and then fed and trained the barbarian very well for 8 years and turned it loose on the world when they were done with it. They brainwashed me, in a way, to be violent...to kill and blow shit up in the face of danger....and it continues to be a large part of my thinking even 10 years after separation...10 years and 6 days to be exact. I understand that I think differently than most people.....even those that claim to not mind torture....I really really don't mind torture....when warranted.

Not as extreme as it used to be, but it surely hasn't gone away......especially concerning how much I would put up with my government treatment of the enemy...or alleged enemy. Personally, they catch one of the known AQ guys, I don't give a radical Shi'ite what they do to him.....I caught him and he'd have eaten a grenade....but I don't care if they stab the @#%^@&#%&%# with shanks made of pig bone for years. Some part of my noodle actually hopes they ARE doing shit like that in the "you ain't got the security clearance to know about it" world.

I wouldn't wanna do it myself, because MY training was in killing the bastards in the quickest manner, not talking to them.....to lift open the trap door and drop a grenade in instead of hauling Saddam out safely.

Plug 'em full of holes.

THEY, the Sarges, made me think the way I still sorta do.

Speaking of Fred.....it amazes me that "conservatives" that claim to ever care about Constitutional rights......would EVER consider the overt 1A infringer as a viable candidate.

Must be his stance on the "dreaded A".

Well.....I don't give a rat's arse about the "dreaded A" as a measure of a candidate when that candidate has shown that he very clearly does not care about 1A rights. His 1A rigths infringing actions completely eclipse his stance on something that he will never touch if in office.

That's right....he did say it was an "oops...shouldn't have done that..." I suppose he can be trusted again.

NOT!!!!

I'll leave the real killing for you Sarge, I get my killing fix on games such as Call of Duty 4 and Gears of War on Xbox 360.

Did they ever get that red ring of death bug fixed for the 360's? I sold mine to a friend who said the xbox did it to him.

Dude....you should see 'em on the Wii...completely different experience than the games I've played for 30 years....there's the only killing in my life right now.....leave it to men younger and more fit than I.

You seem to have the notion in your head that this practice is performed on everyone we take into custody.....like there isn't a triage process that weeds out the minorly involved guy that simple gets caught with an AK-47 in his closet.....

Who cares if its performed on one or a thousand. The point is its done at all.

Strange how the recently released secret files of the WWII interrogation group (I forget their name) revealed they didn't have to resort to torture to get what they wanted or needed out of the Germans...a far more formidable enemy than this ragtag bunch of muslim wackos. So if they didn't need it, and got the job done, what does that say about excuse. That its pretty hollow, which goes back to what image are we projecting to the world. That we will behave like the very people we are fighting against?

Cry me a river.

German soldiers, for the most part.....were RATIONAL...just like we were...they cared about living and they cared about dying.....and they were real uniformed soldiers afforded the rules of warfare at the time...for the most part...and they behaved in accordance with the rules of warfare...for the most part...they wanted nothing more than to get back to their families, not to go to heaven with 72 Virginians....they were not crazy-assed "true believers of the one and only true religion" hell bent on the conversion of the entire world...or the death thereof.

In case you missed it, your comparison is complete bullshit.

....and if you think we're behaving like our enemy, you're just as deluded as always.

So, we're running around in civilian clothes, with concealed weapons, with no recognizeable insignia....and we cut the heads off and drag through the streets and burn all enemies we find.

My...how you really must really hate our military for behaving as such.

Our interrogators "simulate drowning" without harming anyone. Their interrogators simulate the cutting off of a head...by cutting off a head.

Yep...great comparison.......you sure got a point in there somewhere.

....and if you think "the Germans" were far more formidable in the interrogation room, well....educate yourself on the difference of mentalities between the 2 cohorts.

Don't confuse "more formidable in the arena of combat" with "a more formidable in the arena of witholding information"...German troops were following orders.....not an ingrained theology.

Ah....WTF do YOU know about keeping people safe...

"Don't waterboards that terrorist.....let that bomb go off...killing thousands of Americans." He has "rights" ya know...

C2R-

Arg.... My system did that to me, I had to send it back to Microsoft (Some place in Texas) I got a different system back but this one is defective too, the tray doesn’t open all the time.

Sarge-

I don't have a Wii, I may get one in the future but I can't get enough of my 360, I think it's the best console on the market, If you had a 360 I'd recommend Gears of War to you, the online component of that game blew me away, you may have heard of it; the game that has the "Chainsaw Bayonet" The game is bloody as hell.

HA!! I think I evolved over time to be a Nintendo snob. I think it's more having to learn a new controller...or keeping 'em straight in my head....than any brand loyalty.

.....but I do love the cartoon-ish games that're put out by Nintendo....the Mario golf...mario tennis...mario baseball...backyard football....very playable indeed.

....and it gets its share of the violent ones too....butnothing with chainsaw bayonet...yikes!!

The new Wii fishing game Hooked is loads of fun and uses the Wii remote functions fairly good.

Hell....who needs to leave the house other than to make $$$$?

"Hell....who needs to leave the house other than to make $$$$?"

Hehe Beats me.

"Speaking of Fred.....it amazes me that "conservatives" that claim to ever care about Constitutional rights......would EVER consider the overt 1A infringer as a viable candidate."

I just don't consider turning out to have the wrong opinion on how to read a constitutional question that was later settled by the Court to be a fatal offense.

Like an ass, I just dropped $400 on a friggin Wii for my son. I always said I'd never get caught up in that toy of the year shit, but who ever thought it would be the same toy for 2 years in a row!

Of course, it will go nicely with the new 42 in LCD the in-laws got us. I imagine we will be up all night on Christmas eve, after wrapping the other gifts and setting up the TV, playing the Wii til the kids get up.

It's hard being a video game junky with no time to play :-(

I just don't consider turning out to have the wrong opinion on how to read a constitutional question that was later settled by the Court to be a fatal offense.

There WAS no "opinion" if you actually read the friggin' bill...which you have clearly not done. It didn't NEED to be ruled "unConstitutional" by the Supremes to see that the "blackout periods on political free speech" was GOING to be ruled unConstitutional because it WAS unConstitutional right from the start. "Congress shall make no law...abridging free speech"........blackout periods on political free speech 30 and 60 days from elections are abridgements of free speech in the exact manner in which the 1A is meant to stop.

Overtly...clearly unConstitutional to everyone but Fredheads.

Or did he simply not read the bill he co-sponsored....showing incompetance?

Maybe it's just different if you've actually taken the oath to protect the Constitution yourself. I'm not too worried...there will never be a President Fred.

TS,

I thought the Wii was only $250? How did you spend $400?

Kerry, your question is answered with the simple economic theory of supply and demand. As someone who once was an assistant manager at Gamestop, I can tell you that some parents would pay ANYTHING for the latest toy (in this case, video game system) when they are having difficulty finding it. I can remember countless occasions when people would line up waiting for a shipment of Wii's, PS3's etc, etc.

When PS3 was first released I remember searching on ebay for a system, one was sold for just over $1000, double the retail price. If someone wants something that badly, you bet they'll get it, no matter the cost.

Oops, I made a mistake, that system sold for about $10,000 and it was an auction that was set to end on the release date for PS3 (Ooooh look, the first PS3 ever avaiable online.) 10 freakin thousand dollars! Yikes! that a bit over double the retail price.... a bit.

SSE,

But I thought TS would be too smart to pay premium for a game.

I sure wouldn't pay $400 for ANY game. I don't care HOW much the children want it. They already know they are stuck with PS2. And nobody in my house is getting an iphone, either. Just because something's "cool" doesn't mean you have to have it.