Preparing America

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency,

the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation.

This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America’s families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

Local authorities are probably responsible for mistakes and failures in this situation. They are answerable to their constituents, and their missed opportunities should be closely examines.

However, any attempt to somehow shift responsibility away from the federal government is misguided. The question is not one of merely legal obligation. To assume it would be acceptable for Washington to be meeting its technical obligations while calmly watching New Orleans drown -- that's hard for me to accept. Situations like this are precisely what FEMA, the National Guard, and the Army Corps of Engineers are chartered to address.

It is also hard to imagine that the reason the federal government delayed action was because the governor was slow to request help. Local officials were openly pleading for more government help on the airwaves. If this IS what happened, I'd like to hear about it, instead of the insinuation of something completely unfounded.

In short, if it turns out that the federal government was slow to act (and that's how it looks), there is no excuse. It's hard to imagine Bush defending himself by hiding behind bureaucratic regulations and red tape! Is this the argument that you would want to defend a leader with?

"Some Fella" hit the nail on the head.

Here we have a broad swath of Bush apologists claiming that "only" if the governer formally requested it, everything would be different.

Forgive me French, but are you fuckin' shittin' me?

Forget the public pleas for federal assistance. Forget the constant coverage of the horrors on television.

If all it took was a "request" for help, why the FUCK didn't the federal government ask for that authority?

When I actually hear someone in the Bush administration claim this as an excuse, all of my remaining trust in this administration is lost. And shame on anyone who thinks this is an acceptable excuse for failing to act.

Some Fella, Frank, lets see how (ir)rational you are.

"If all it took was a "request" for help, why the FUCK didn't the federal government ask for that authority?"

They did.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html

"Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday."

"It is also hard to imagine that the reason the federal government delayed action was because the governor was slow to request help. Local officials were openly pleading for more government help on the airwaves. If this IS what happened, I'd like to hear about it, instead of the insinuation of something completely unfounded."

"The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request."

Uh oh....looks like the um.....facts are not with the Bush bashers once again. The local pols can scream for federal help in front of the Bush bashing MSM cameras all they want, but that's irrelevant, since it's the task of the GOVERNOR to request that help. You want to do something with your NG troops, fine....but if you want federal troops, you gotta ask.....AND Bush could not send federal troops for this without the request. As happened with hurricane Inike in '92, our Div Commander sent us immediately and without the request (because we could get there within an hour)....then-Governor Waiehe whined about us being deployed without his request and we had to pack up to go back.....only to have him cave-in and say "well, since you're already there....".

Problem with this shit is politics and perception. The Guvna doesn't wanna look as incompetant as she is so she can get reelected and the Admin is playing it by the book.....which she hasn't read very well....AND she wants control over the federal goings on, which she should never get.

MJohnson -

Your quote refers to state National Guard troops, not the troops sent in by the President. It also refers to discussions on Friday, not Monday or Tuesday when the situation could have been prevented.

Read the next sentence from the article: "A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor."

You want to do something with your NG troops, fine....but if you want federal troops, you gotta ask

Again, there is absolutely no proof that this is what happened, and it's no coincidence that Bush himself is not saying this. He's leaving it to his lackeys to spead this nonsense.

And, again, if in the face of all the destruction we saw, Bush really was just waiting for authorization - why didn't he mention to the press, let's say during his last golf outing, that he's waiting? Why didn't he put public pressure on?

Simple, because this is a fantasy lie you're helping to perpetuate.

Yessss...I get it now. Anyone that disagrees with your tripe is a lackey or is telling lies that you won't clarify. Yet, in the face of destruction, the local governments whose job it is to deal with emergencies, failed to implement their own beaurocratically conjured plans....and everyone can just jump on Bush for things that went wrong. Hell, blame him for the 20% of the police force that is not currently on the police force. Bush must've had 'em all rounded up by the Fascistii because he's a racist.

What part of a state controls NG troops and that federal troops cannot just go in without permission do you not understand? In a hurricane relief effort, the STATE controls them (NG troops), needs to activate them, and commands them. You want federal troops, even Reserves based in your state....you gotta ask...or you gotta give 'em permission. I've lived it when I was 25th ID during hurricane Inike...you?

OF course, you know better....it's somewhere in that mini-rant....somewhere....

>>Yet, in the face of destruction, the local governments whose job it is to deal with emergencies

It is not their job to deal with disasters that size.

Even if it were a single state or city does not have the personell or the resources to handle something of that magnitude.

Quit trying to pass the buck.

What part of a state controls NG troops and that federal troops cannot just go in without permission do you not understand? In a hurricane relief effort, the STATE controls them (NG troops), needs to activate them, and commands them. You want federal troops, even Reserves based in your state....you gotta ask...or you gotta give 'em permission. I've lived it when I was 25th ID during hurricane Inike...you?

Round and round and round we go...

Repeat the line as much as you want, but again, there is no evidence that the feds refused to send adequate support in before Friday because of lack of "permission." Show me one administration official who has made that claim.

Frank is on the money. The article sited by MJohnson does NOT refer to request for the guard to help Louisiana. What that article discusses is who is put in command of the national guard. Is anyone able to show that the governor did not request federal assistance? Is it so hard to stay on topic?

And Sarge, thanks for this pair of quotes:

"As happened with hurricane Inike in '92, our Div Commander sent us immediately and without the request (because we could get there within an hour)"

and

"federal troops cannot just go in without permission"

So your division commander has more authority to overrule federal regulations than the president? Powerful man. I can only hope that the NG commanders who live near me are as compassionate and decisive. If only the same was true of our president.

I think there is plenty of time to find out who to blame for this disaster. Personally, I believe that the responsibility is shared by many individuals over a long period of time. However, it is passing strange to try to defend a slow federal response with page and verse of federal regulations. Especially when you have no proof that those regulations even applied.

It's really simple. If you want to use the Lousiana Disaster Plan to explain that the president's hands were tied, you have to show that the governor did not request federal assistance until very late in the game. Do you REALLY think that's what happened? Really?

yes.

No, Some Fella, my division commander had no authority to send us in without state request and was WRONG. Actually, I thinkm the city and state governments were completely incompetant in NOT implementing the plan they set up. They just did not implement it and THAT compounded EVERYTHING we are seeing now other than the physical destruction of the city....which you can blame on Kat. Everything humanitarian would be one tenth of the problem had they actually used the plan they set up and followed it....which they did not.

UY...try reading the hurricane response plan as set forth by every local and state agency involved in such things before you open your ignorant brain. If you did notice the plan and read it, which I doubt you ever will....DO note that very little of the actual plan was implemented in this instance. I suppose you missed all the local stuff in your haste to bash Bush. Stuff like NOT opening BOTH SIDES of I-10 on Saturday, so that the traffic stopped moving altogether. Must've missed that. Did you miss all those local buses parked in their lots that SHOULD HAVE, under the "plan" been taking those that couldn't take themselves out of the city. Under the "plan", all highways open all lanes to outgoing traffic and the local agencies use all local means to get the indigent and car-less out of town...but I bet, in your haste to bash Bush, yoiu are either ignorant of that fact or know it and are an asshole. NONE of that was done.

In your haste to bash Bush, did you miss the thousands that sought refuge in the Superdome....before the hurricane? Somehow, I know I missed all the food and water that the LOCAL government was supposed to bring there, according to the "plan". In your haste to bash Bush, do you understand that the federal government is the last resort in crisis management? I only trained with them for 2+ years as a NG troop and 5+ years as a biohazard specialist and DPH-Guard liason....but what would I know.

Frank...do I have to speak slower or use bigger letters? It doesn't matter what you say. The federal government cannot just send troops in a natural disaster situation without a request by the local goverment. THAT request was never made. Now you can go on with your circle-jerk.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/2005%20%20proclamations/48pro2005-Emergency-HurricaneKatrina.pdf

No, this is not proof that federal help was requested. However, it is indicative that the governor had mobilized emergency resources as early as the 26th. There have been claims in the media to the contrary.

Sarge:

"The federal government cannot just send troops in a natural disaster situation without a request by the local goverment. THAT request was never made."

Can you site some evidence? That's what both Frank and I have been clamoring for. I don't know why people can claim to be confident of this with absolutely ZERO supporting data.

I don't understand why it's so hard to admit that the federal government screwed this up royally. I also don't understand why this has anything to do with whether or not the locals were responsible.

The way I see it, it's not a question of there being a certain set quantity of blame to be assigned to all negligent parties. Rather, it is the responsibility of everyone involved who could have done something to prevent or reduce this tragedy but didn't. The amount of responsibility is based on how hard it would have been for them to do something different, and the amount of difference they could have made.

Thus, responsibility on the local level in no way reduces responsibility for federal mistakes. As time goes on, we will have time to investigate these things, it is still awfully early to be sure about anything. However, it looks like the federal government screwed up AT THE VERY LEAST by responding slowly. There is always the possibility that this isn't the case; like I said, it's awfully early. However, it's also awfully early to be defending this behavior.

If you want to just say "let's wait for investigations and more information," I would have to agree you have a good point. But to come out and make unfounded claims about jurisdictional responsibility in an attempt to absolve the administration of blame...that betrays your partisan interests as much as any leftist witchhunter. I think all objective people should be alarmed with the federal response, since that affects us all (unlike the local response). I eagerly await the real answers.

They can't do it. Here's my understanding of what happened, although I haven't been able to find the "paper trail."

Someone at the Washington Times spoke to a Bush administration official on deep background, who stated off the record something to the effect that the governor was refusing entry. The Times didn't confirm this, and later was inundated with contrary information, so the following day they published a retraction.

Nonetheless, Rove et al has already gotten the "meme" out into the world, and people like Rush, O'Reilly, etc will continue to "quote" the Washington Times, and people like Sarge will continue to believe them.

It's just sickening that these types of tactices are being used now. Here's an interesting read about the administration's plan to control the political damage:

Jurisdicitonal responsibility? You got that right. How about looking at that one? It's the responsibility of the local New Orleans parish presidents to come up with plans to deal with emergencies incorporating parish resources into the plan, to train their people to handle those situations and to PRACTICE those plans, implementing feedback from FEMA, the city and the state for things unforseen to be written into the plans for future use. It's up to the city government to come up with plans to deal with emergencies at the local level, coordinating the local plans into one city-wide plan using city resources which can be trained on, practiced, etc.... It's up to the STATE to come up with state plans to coordinate the local city plans together into a state plan to incorporate STATE resources into the final plans.

It's up to FEMA to assist in the planning process as necessary, the training process, feedback process, and to coordinate all activities into a regional plan.

The failures started at the city level, not the federal level. The city did not follow the plan that THEY came up with (with the help of the state and federal agencies)....then the STATE did not follow the plan as it was laid out. Then the federal government did not have everything they needed in place the next day BECAUSE THEY NEVER WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE EVERYTHING IN PLACE THE NEXT DAY. Everything at the local and state levels is supposed to, according to the plan, last at least 4 days because it takes 4 days to ramp up an adequate federal response. That's why when I was a Sarge in the Guard, we practiced our asses off with the assistance of FEMA. That's why, now that I'm the state liason with the Guard concerning biohazard matters, we practice our asses off with the assistance of FEMA......AT THE STATE LEVEL.

...but when there's complete incompetence at the local and state levels....there's gonna be nothing much the fedgov can do 4 days later but pick up the pieces.

Why aren't all you Bush bashers asking the racist mayor why he didn't implement the plan? How about the guvna? Why did she not implement the plan?

I know...it's just much easier to blame Bush than to actually understand the organization of it all.

Yep, that's right Mr. Frankie. I couldn't possibly think for myself. As a matter of fact, I've got an implant in my head that zaps my cerebral cortex every time I have a liberal thought. Rush put it there (even though I haven't heard Rush in almost 20 years) and Rove has the button that sends an impulse through O'Reilly and Hannity through FauxNews(even though I don't have cable to watch them/it). Only Bush bashers can actually, you know, think for themselves while they're spewing their incorrect and illogical lefty talking points that are disseminated every morning. Like the Globe and NYTimes and LATimes don't issue retractions of their knowingly false stories they manufacture. Yeah...you sure got us all pegged.

Put on all the snark you want. I should learn not to throw in personal attacks, as you take that as license to ignore the point made. It's a bit hard though, when every comment you make includes large rants on what an ignorant Bush bashing liberal everyone who dares to refute you is. Like this choice one:

Frank...do I have to speak slower or use bigger letters? It doesn't matter what you say. [...] Now you can go on with your circle-jerk.

Sarge get his news from FR and Drudge probably.

Sarge is really really bad at thinking for himself, which is just as well because he hasnt done it in the past 17 years or so.

Just continue to ignore the facts um yeah. Whether you want to face it or not, the local and state gov. ARE supposed to deal with the initial stages of a disaster that size. Sarge is correct in his timeline of how it is meant to work. The Gov. and Mayor just were inept. I don't care what Party they belong to. I'd feel the same if they were Republicans. It's called intellectual honesty, something you are unfamiliar with.

Ah yes...UY comes in with yet another batch of ad hominems not even loosely disguised as something logical and rational to say. Let's clear up the illogical lies shall we. Freerepublic.com does not report the news, it posts links to the news directly from their sources, yoiui know...all those liberal sources you love so much......and I've never gotten my news from Drudge or ever posted a link FROM Drudge but nice try Mr. "I have nothing to say". So....I can't think for myself eh? Where exactly did I get my marching orders to speak the truth about emergency management? STRAIGHT FROM THE LOUSIANA GOVERNMENT WEBSITE.....so you can take your LIES and smoke 'em with your hash tonight.

UY don't pretend that you know me now or 17 years ago, but everyone here, including the lefties, can see how insignificant your non-thinking, illogical, irrational and unintelligible statements are. I'd like to call 'em arguments or even discussions, buy everyone here knows you are incapable of that.

But if that's all you got to say...nothing...then that's all you got. Love that good ole "make baseless illogical accusations while ignoring the content" meme you got going.

>>ARE supposed to deal with the initial stages of a disaster that size.

So you know of the word initial.

Know what it means?

There was you know a lot going on after the initial stages which is and was as large a problem as anything else.

>>it posts links to the news directly from their sources

And from Blogs, and assorted right wing folderol and Newsmax and Drudge...

So where do you get your news from?

>>So....I can't think for myself eh?

You never have and probably never will.

Ah yes...all that to say nothing. So have you read ANY of the evacuation plans that weren't followed yet? Have you understood that it's the task of local and state governments to handle emergencies for a minimum of 4 days yet? Didn't think so.

Go on....hate FR some more. You DO know that ALL the news is posted there by the minute don't you? You DO know that they give the source of the news for each article don't you? You DO know that people have the option of listening to blogs or the AP don't you? Everything that's on the wires is posted there quicker than anywhere else on the web. Evidently, you've got a problem with people actually paying attention to the news. FYI, I get my news from the Boston Herald, the Boston Globe and the Associated Press. Nice try lying about me though.

Nice baseless ad hominem. You think everyone here doesn't know you're just a pathetic child throwing a tantrum? You think everyone here doesn't know how full of shit you are? I'm talking EVERYONE, even the liberals. They ALL see you lie and throw ad hominems and treat you like that family secret that nobody talks about. Your ignorant opinions of me are irrelevant.

Sarge seems to think that not just anyone can go to FR.

Lets see what can be found on the "latest posts" section.

>>Mayor Nagin: 10,000 Counts of Manslaughter Special to FreeRepublic ^ | 10 September 2005 | John Armor (Congressman Billybob)

Posted on 09/08/2005 11:35:48 AM PDT by Congressman Billybob

Well that we can let slide since its by a Congressman (R-Tardsilvania)

>>Rush Live Thread September 8,2005 09/08/2005 | defconw

Posted on 09/08/2005 9:11:14 AM PDT by defconw

>>HE is on fire it's a must today!

No link.

KFTY.com ^ | August 25, 2005 | Sidney Levesques

Posted on 09/08/2005 11:52:12 AM PDT by UnklGene

Well that had a link...

you are pathetic.

sooo, HAVE you read the PLAN yet? Hmmm?

Have you read the evac plan yet or are you just gonna try to blast strawmen all day.

If you care to actually analyze the FR I have mentioned...why don't you do it? Ignore what posters say and just go get the news. Hell, I'll do it for you. First article is a link from the AP about the $51.8 billion in aid. Second article is from a FoxNews story on Sandy Berger pleading guilty and getting a slap on the wrist. Third article is from CNN and is about the drop in oil futures. 4th is a FNC story about the Red Cross not being allowed to deliver much needed aid. 5th one is an AP story on Ahnold and the gay marriage bill.

Or you could just keep on LYING about it. How about going to the "recent posts" of the DU? AND....if you actually, you know care to learn the truth....there was a link in that Rush thread that went to an AP wire-service link.....but you've gotta actually, you know...WANT to find it.

PLUS, lemme show your continuing ignorance to everyone here. The "recent posts" section of FR is just that....recent posts. Now, those posts can be vanity rants, website links, blog links, or....gasp....the NEWS. Now, I do't know about non-members, but on the right side, there's a little section called News/Breaking News that gathers all the news and puts it all in one place. So, shall I go to your favorite DU and start copy/pasting THEIR tripe? Or are you actually gonna edumacate yourself before you show your ignorance again?

Sarge, you remember those "ad hominems" you mentioned NINE times in your rants in this thread? Well, I don't think you 100% understand the meaning the the term, but re-read your last post for some choice examples.

>>The "recent posts" section of FR is just that....recent posts.

Well considering it is you know the most recent posts and it is at the top is why I picked that for my little perusal.

BTW I did I ever claim nice things about DU like you claim about FR?

Nope.

wow! Sarge, funny how um yeah doesn't even mention the PLAN. Won't go there. What a pathetic, lefty , pretend intellectual. Afraid to read something. Hah!

Lisa, you're all missing the point.

Of course there were errors on the local and state side. As time goes on, we will certainly understand all of the blunders as well as successes much more fully.

But Aaron is claiming in this post that local authorities are responsible for everything that went wrong. Quote the "plan" all you want, no one here is arguing about it. But to claim that errors on the local side abdicate federal responsiblity is nonsense.

Tardsylvannia....heheh that's quite funny.

It's too bad folks can't debate politely. There's no reason whatsoever to be nasty to each other. You gotta ask yourselves "what's my goal in this discussion?". If it is to have a positive impact and maybe learn something, unpleasantness is uncalled for. If you just want to throw a few cheap shots and walk home with a smug grin, then you're in the right place. Note: This goes out to all denominations.

Anyway, with all the emotional name-calling, it's very easy to lose sight of the topic, and some of the very good points that have been made (by me).

The question here is, does the local responsibility absolve the feds of any culpability? And the answer should be a resounding no. No matter what it says on paper, the feds should not have stood by while they could have done something. All these claims that the governor didn't ask for help (which have been forgotten in this donnybrook) are unfounded. Surely you'd see this line taken already by the administration if it had any merit. They are already trying to defray responsibility.

Like I said before, local and federal culpability have little to do with each other. They can both be guilty, and they both are.

frankie-boy. When you wash the shit-taste from your mouth after kissing my ass, you just might know that I fully understand the term ad hominem, having taken and passed logic at the university level and having been on 2 debate teams. I fully know that I use them at those that used them at me FIRST....but what you fail to understand is that I generally point 'em out to those that have nothing to say OTHER THAN ad hominems, as in their entire argument is a string of illogical , baseless, and incorrect personal attacks...red herrings too. THAT puts UY at the top of the list.

UY....good to see your ignorance of the website Freerepublic.com is still there. Come one now...look on the right side of the page (that is, if you're on the right page) and see that the site takes all those different types of posts and separates them into categories like "news/breaking news", etc...so that you can weed out the vanity rants and you can know what the source is. Or you can be a say-nothing, ignorant prick, and drink some more kool-aid. Your choice. But you're correct....I say nothing good about the DU because there's nothing good about a bunch of extreme leftists ranting all day about how much they hate America......and they banned me for supporting the invasion of Afghanistan.

Frankie...the claim of the article is that hurricane evacuation is 100% the sole duty of the local and state governments...and THAT is an inarguable fact as pointed out by teh evacuation plan set up by the state and local officials with the assistance of FEMA. Add to THAT the fact that the errors at the local and state level created problems that shouldn't havve existed and compounded already existing problems. Here's a little lesson for you in what SHOULD'VE happened under a competent mayor and governor following the evacuation plan. The mayor tells the parish presidents that a mandatory evacuation has been ordered. He actually did this on the Sunday after less than 24 hours of voluntary evac. Now, had he/they followed the plan as set up by the local and state agencies with the assistance of FEMA, ALL lanes in the I-10 freeway would've been filled with northbound traffic...not just ONE lane choked with cars going...nowhere. Now, had they actually followed the plan, those that couldn't leave on their own power would've been evacuated by the city using city resources. Police cars, fire engines, ambulances, RT buses and yes....all those city school buses that you've all seen that are sitting in a lake of a parking lot. Now...ALL these evacuated people could've been brought to the pre-established (damn that plan) evacuation shelters OUTSIDE the city where it's quite easy to feed, water, and clothe them...as designated in the "plan".

NONE of that was done.

Now...add on the fact that the state government wouldn't allow the Red Cross or Salvation Army to enter the city to provide help to those that needed it. You know, all those people that were starving to death. Complete incompetence at the state level. Criminal negligence in not allowing food that could've saved lives into the region FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Thus far, the ONLY thing I can directly fault Bush on is the feds not ordering the squadrons of helicopters from the 101st in Kentucky or other army bases nearby Ft. Benning, GA, etc... down to the area to pull those that actually wanted to leave off of their houses. That's the only fuck up on FEMAs end that I can point to. FEMA coordinates SAR through the DoD....and other than some USCG helos, there was nothing done IMMEDIATELY for SAR.

However, the point is that the unnecessary loss of LIFE caused by NOT evacuating according to the plan is due to the incompetence at the local level due to them not following their own friggin' plan of evacuation. The PROPERTY loss I see as unavoidable and a whole other discussion.

You all like to talk about federal responsibility....do you even know what the responsibility of the federal government in these situations is?

Fella....I'm surely glad you listed all those things the federal government should've done, but didn't...encompassing everything into the great general culpability.

If you think the local and federal culpabilities aren't tightly connected, you don't understand emergency management. Other than SAR and sending troops in by invoking the Insurrection Act, most of the feds job is to set up communications systems and to direct LOCAL resources and aid agencies to where they are needed, using those communications systems. Of course, you knew that and are trying to separate everything so you can point the finger at the admin you don't like....or maybe you didn't know that and are just ignorant on emergency management. Creds? Riot control instructor US Army, Riot control instructor Mass NG, Mass DPH liason to the Mass NG during bioterrorist events. I know FEMA, the CDC, and the DoD quite well and train with them quarterly.

Sarge,

No need to be sarcastic. Just ask "what do you think the federal govt should have done?" And I'll tell you, simply, they should have gotten more resources down to NOLA at an earlier time. In fact, they should have been there ahead of time.

Now, let me stop you before you tell me about how all of that is the state's responsibility. Let me instead ask you this question: what has the administration been doing these last four years about emergency management? We're closing in on the fourth anniversary of 9/11. What if this was a biological weapon instead of a hurricane? Would you be making the same arguments?

My point here is that the administration has been promising us since 9/11 that they would be the ones to make us safer. Where does emergency management enter that equation? Even though this was a hurricane, I'm confident that the response for, let's say, terror-oriented emergencies would be very similar. So how are they making us safer at home? This makes me think that in a terror attack, if the response is bad the government will again blame the locals and say it's not a federal issue.

They had four years to get this right. If the regulations are bad, they could have changed them. This should have been a priority. What happened to our unilateral take-no-prisoners, bust-through-the-gridlock president?

On top of this, I am very skeptical in the GOP claims that this is a local issue. Who is playing the blame game now? EVERYONE is pointing fingers. EVERYONE! It's not just the democrats descending to this level. It's all just one big partisan battle.

You have to ask yourself, are national emergencies really a local issue? Should they be? I don't think you're getting my point. Federal and local responsibilities are integrated? Well that's good to hear, I wouldn't have it any other way. Why hide behind supposed regulations that you haven't shown to apply (i.e. the governor calling for help....seems like everyone has forgotten this was the point). Assuming such regulations existed, what would have happened if the president had just ignored them during the crisis? Civil war? Then we're in way worse shape than I thought.

Sarge, I'm glad you know something about the topic, and I don't discount your input. However, what is at stake here is more important than just regulations and the way we do business. It's a question of philosophy. Who is responsible during a national disaster? "Not me!" says everyone and their buddies. "All of you are Americans!" says I. Regulations can be changed. Like I've said, the culpability starts way before Katrina...of that I am absolutely sure.

Also like I've said, there is a very simple formula for determining who is responsible. Simply ask these questions: (1) Could they have done anything about it? (2) How much could they have done about it? (3) How hard would it have been to do something about it? If you can think of a better formula, let me know. Our bust-em-up president is currently all constrainted by regulations. But could he have done anything about this?

One final thing. Let me be absolutely clear: I'm not letting anyone off the hook here. The only reason I don't detail local responsibilities is because what I'm trying to do here is show that the federal government is not absolved. If the discussion was about how the federal govt had sole responsibility, I'd be arguing the other way around.

Sorry for the long post. I'm probably developing quite the long-winded rep.

Some Fella, It is impossible to be polite to Um yeah. I have tried and gotten called a whore and worse, in return. No more Mister Nice Guy!

Lisa,

To be perfectly honest, I think Umm Yeah goes over the top. What's up, man? Why are you here, just to throw bombs? It's a waste of time for you and others; it lowers the level of the conversation, nobody learns anything, and it just spreads negativity and distrust. Also, it makes it harder for people like me who have a genuine interest in engaging people on the other side to be able to do so. You're basically just crapping all over any dialog.

But I also had Sarge in mind to a lesser extent. He's been OK with me but some of the stuff he's lobbed at frank has been over the top. I don't give a damn about people's hurt feelings (and frank doesn't seem too put off), but what's the point? I'm here to have a conversation, not wade through insults and vein-poppin bloggy action. Dude, you invest too much of your ego into this stuff, take a step back.

Of course, I'm not the net police. Feel free to stab each other to death. Just let me step to the side...

Aaron, I will put him at the bottom of my prayer list, Jack Mormon that he is. I don't wish anyone to die from a stoke, a horrible way to go, my Grand father died from one.

On the other hand, he is a traitor to his country, his religion, and the State that he represents, may God , who rules all things, save this man and direct him on the path to salvation.

Amen.

Bill

Posted by Little Bill [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 27, 2005 08:51 PM

amen

Posted by Lisa [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 28, 2005 06:34 PM

Care to see some of Aarons quotes?

These people arent here for anything other than their two minute hate. To say I am lowering the level of discourse is a laugh. Like it was even possible.

Also try to get Sarge to stand by anything he says.

He will even try to say he isnt a Bush supporter.

Some Fella -

"Who is responsible during a national disaster?"

You are absolutely right in that regard. That IS the question we should be asking, first and foremost, in regard to how this one was handled.

"Our bust-em-up president is currently all constrainted by regulations. But could he have done anything about this?"

Let's think about 'could' and 'should'.

The first thing you must understand is that New Orleans is a singular, specific incident. Policies should not be based on specific incidents. If one person turns out to have been grossly inept, (as any peson has the potential to be) that does not warrant a re-structuring of the whole system.

It (to me) becomes perfectly clear that the local authorities were inept and incapable of dealing with this disaster. And so in this instance, I think it is undeniable that things would have been better had the federal government been in charge from the beginning. Most of the charges against the feds have been just this : That they didn't over-ride local authorities...Some people think that was in their place to do.

But what garauntee do you bring with you that this situation cannot be reversed? That the next time there is a natural disaster or a terrorist attack, people will not be decrying an inept fed for over-riding all the wise decisions of a very apt local authority?

That's what I mean about not making a policy based on a specific circumstance, where the result was influenced by specific individuals. There aren't the same individuals who will be dealing with a disaster if a massive earthquake rocks california, so working the specifics into the generic overlying plan isn't effective.

So now, the question is which is better? Should the feds have complete responsibility for dealing with these things, or should the local authorities carry that responsiblility, and the feds only make themselves available to be utilized?

As life changes, the face of the city changes, technology changes, road-ways (amount of lanes, quality of pavement) all change...Do you want someone in Washington in charge of the disaster plan? The evacuation plan? Or do you want someone who actually lives in your city? Someone who KNOWs the city.

I cannot help but feel that someone who is in direct charge of the area, living in that same area and dealing with it on a daily basis, and focused on ONLY that area, is going to be capable (individual incompitencies aside) to provide far better planning and a sort of plan-maintanence (changing to plan to adapt to changes in the area) then the guys in Washington can.

When a disaster hits, I want someone who lives here, nearby, who's been in my neighborhood, maybe driven by house, someone who knows the minutia of the area and not just some abstract statistics. The knowledge of the little things is going to help him in determining the best course of action. I don't want someone who's never even been to the town, responsible for 5000 other towns besides mine, shuffling papers in washington DC, relatively isolated and unreachable, by virtue of being on top a massive beauracracy.

Things certainly went poorly in this situation. It is still probably too early to damn anyone, but I have a good idea myself of who deserves the damning, barring any new revelations. But I beleive it was an issue of specifics, combined with the fact that disasters are naturally chaotic and hard to control, and sometimes things go badly - that's what makes them emergencies. If they were easy to control, they'd be mundane.

So no. Their is nothing Bush SHOUlD have done about the regulations. The way authority is distributed now does not give 100% assurance of near-perfect disaster relief, but NOTHING will do THAT. The way authority is distributed now gives everyone the highest probability of nearest-to-perfect disaster relief, then any other plan the redistributes such authorities to the feds. In the case of New Orleans, they fell on the short end of that probability, and that makes this tragic and devestating. But before we look to making sure it doesn't happen again, we need to know why it happened. All this talk is really QUITE premature because (as I have said) I still think we lack all the information neccessary to start damning people. Their will be a time for that later, in a month or two.

hah um yeah that's rich. Couldn't you find a better excuse for your vitiol? I said "amen" to the notion that he be directed to better things. Duh!

hmm, I guess a fellow lib critizing you was difficult to take. Well, Some Fella is posting for a good reason, unlike you. He wants to talk about things,you don't.

MJohnson,

You make some good points. I've been reading more and more about the incident, and I have to admit that it looks like local authorities made some huge mistakes. I am thinking specifically about Nagin's delayed call for a mandatory evacuation and the poor evacuation plans for the city.

However, in my reading, I have also noticed something interesting. Until maybe less than 24 hours before the hurricane hit, they didn't know exactly where it was going to make landfall. It could have hit Florida, Louisiana or Mississipi. To me, this seems like a situation that definitely calls for federal intervention. The feds should have been coordinating emergency response on an interstate level before the hurricane hit. That is at the very least. Because each state may have its own National Guard, but they also need to communicate in this situation.

You raise a reasonable point of governmental philosophy. The locals are going to be in place to react first and, potentially, best. But who is best posed to coordinate activities through three states? I think some central control is called for. According to stuff I've been reading that was posted right before the hurricane hit, this looked like a disaster for the whole gulf coast. We're not just talking about NO here.

So, I do think the federal government had a role here. Of course, right now we're only talking about emergency response. If you ask me, the real failures occurred starting in July 2002, when studies by DHS (I believe) uncovered the risk of "filling the bowl". From what I can tell in my very preliminary examination, this is a federal issue. The levees around NOLA and the Mississipi are maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers. The Corps was looking into raising these levees, but I *believe* they didn't because of funding issues. So far, my reading of the local failures points the finger at Nagin. Also, I've been reading these reports about some contention between the governor and the president about control of emergency forces. This conflict is a bit confusing to me because it involves laws I'm unfamiliar with. It looks like one or both parties might have acted improperly here by arguing while NOLA floods (is that better than fiddling while Rome burns?). I'm really not sure about this one.

Like I've said before, I assign responsibility to those who could have done something, but did not. Let's put the word "reasonably" in front of "done". By that standard, a lot of people will still turn out guilty. What is most damning to me is that this danger was known for three years and nobody did anything.

However, you'll have to excuse me if I'm more concerned about the federal failures. Since I live in NY, Lousiana authorities don't answer to me, and I don't depend on them. However, I would worry about how the federal government would respond in yet another disaster.

For instance, it looks to me like it was a mistake to put FEMA under the DHS. It also looks like the appointment of "Brownie" was a huge mistake, a bit of political patronage in a critical post. Brownie didn't really know what was happening on the ground, and that shouldn't be surprising for someone with no experience in emergency management. Could a more competent FEMA director have responded more quickly? Would he perhaps have had more emergency resources waiting to move in? My as-yet uninformed suspicion says yes.

My opinion on these matters is still evolving. But so far, it looks like there is plenty of blame to go around. I very much agree with you MJohnson that it is early to draw any strong conclusions.

Umm Yeah:

I don't buy your explanation. Perhaps the only reason you have seen the hateful side of these people is because you bring it out. So far, people have been very polite to me, for the most part. I don't say this about just this website; lately I've been popping up on a bunch of conservative blogs, and as long as I keep it nice, they have been surprisingly reasonable. Give it a try, if that's what you're really interested in. Because it looks to me like this is about your two minutes of hate.

Lisa:

I'm not a liberal, I'm a Bush-hating moderate. At least, that's how I think of myself. To be honest, according to the current American political climate I would rate a little left, but I think in absolute terms I could be called moderate. Bah, that's a whole other discussion.

MJohnson,

Something just occurred to me that relates to the broader question of the federal/state boundary. It is that for some critical issues, local resources may not be enough to meet certain local needs. This disaster may be a good illustration; I can't be sure, I don't really know the precise economics here. But I think it will become clear one way or another in the ensuing months.

I think it is very likely that neither New Orleans nor Louisiana possessed the resources to raise the levees. It is also possible that they lacked the resources to properly evacuate the population and handle the humanitarian crises.

Still, it's suspicious anyway for the administration to be citing its concerns about state sovereignty. Despite the rhetoric, I don't think Bush and co. are particularly anti-federal or pro-state's rights, except on issues where its convenient to other agenda, like abortion. That's a big appendix to what is already a long thread, so I'm not going to make an argument here.

Thats cute.

They reason they hate us (not just me) is that we exist.

Would you like to see some quotes of Aarons?

>>Couldn't you find a better excuse for your vitiol?

Well besides you never could quite find it in you to take back your obvious lies?

UY:

Not really. I don't see how it could serve a useful purpose. If these guys are such lying assholes, why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish?

>>why are you here?

To see how low these guys can possibly sink.

>>What are you trying to accomplish?

Cursing the Darkness...

>>I don't see how it could serve a useful purpose.

Could provide insight give you a nice clue about how even the so-called-polite hardcore righties feel.

Ill give you a hint it contain eradication.

Um Yeah, actually I'd rather not get into all of your history here. If these guys are as bad as you say they are, I'm sure it will eventually become clear. If you spend all your time arguing about everything you've ever argued about, you don't go anywhere. It's like arguing with your girlfriend. Besides, what goes on here isn't worth getting worked up about. Just another forum in a corner of the web.

How long have you been posting at these kinds of sites?

Not very long; just a few weeks. I want to learn about those I disagree with. Ultimately, I either learn to see some points in what they think, or I come out of it with better arguments for my own position. Win/win.

The truth is, I don't disagree with most of what I read on the conservative web. Both lobes of the "blogosphere" devote a lot of space to complaining about the most extreme fringe of the other lobe. Thus, one tends to agree with most of what they both post. Ironic, since they are so bitterly divided. A lot of it comes down to partisanship and ego, but there are also some unresolvable philosophical differences. Less than most would think, though.

>>Not very long; just a few weeks.

There we go, youre a bit of a newb.

I once figured rightwingers werent quite so bad.

I was wrong. I give it another month or two before you come to the same conclusion.

In fact they should've been there ahead of time

Wrong answer. One does not bring provisions INTO a flood prone city......and one does not store them there in preparation. One does not bring ANYTHING in ahead of time at the federal level. One tries to get people OUT, at the local level, so that help can get to them quicker in the aftermath.

What if this was biological

Well, welcome to MY life (part of which is the DPH liason with the NG). If this was biological, the response is at the hospital level (quarantine) then the city level (quarantine by National Guard troops), THEN at the federal level when the CDC steps in, typically with USAMRIID. Once the incident gets taken over by the federal government (not by choice, by force), they can and will quarantine the entire area with federal troops.........BUT, the entire situation starts out at the local level. Bio-incidents are handled quite differently in that the fed-gov can and will easily declare a federal state of emergency and immediately take control.

You asked.

Yes....EVERY incident in this country is, at first, a local issue (unless you wanna ignorantly bash the current POTUS). The fedgov doesn't have the resources to respond fully to any incident in any community. The only manner to deal with such things is to plan at the local level to hold out until the fedgov CAN get there. Now, this doesn't all happend at once and many things can get there quicker than others.....but concerning evacuations, THAT is a local thing. Search and rescue is the quickest federal thing due to much of that being done by helicopters.

"Regulations" can be changed all they want....but the only regulations that should not be changed is concerning the military. A state controls THEIR NG and other states cannot give up their NG troops without request and approval. AND the fedgov, barring a federal state of emergency (which a national disaster rarely is) can not send in troops withhout request...barring Insurrection Act exclamations (and even most of those would still be at request of the local gubmints).

Could the fedgov have done anything about it? Other than mobilizing more blackhawks from area military bases by FEMA to conduct SAR a little quicker.....no. It's not feasible to bring in supplies before this hit...and the job of bringing them in AFTER is the Red Cross and the Salvation Army...and they were both denied.

How much could they have done? Dunno. There's a reason that relief starts at the bottom (the individual) and runs to the top (federal government)...and that's logistics. It's easier to plan for yourself to last a few weeks than the fedgov to come to your rescue when they have 400000 OTHER people to tend to. It's easier for the local governments, with resources in place, to evacuate people than to have the fedgov accumulate buses and drive them INTO the area after the fact. This is why FEMA assists local governments in planning....because it just runs more smoothly from the bottom up. Let me be clear though.....there SHOULD'VE been more SAR helos up there other than the dozen from the Coast Guard. The 101st in Kentucky has to have hundreds of blackhawks...as does Ft. Benning, GA and the 82nd. Those birds should've been up getting people the next day and possibly a day or so later...dropping water and MREs.

Never be sorry for a long post....always be sorry when you've got nothing but one-liner ad hominems like UY.

UY...choose one of my stances and I'll stand by it to the death....or until someone shows me that THAT stance is wrong. Lemme know when you actually, you know, HAVE a stance...and I'll blast the shit out of it. PLUS...YOU have no standing to go off quoting others asshole. You wanna start with that shit...look in the mirror.

Fella...the feds getting involved in coordinating multi-state evacuations is not what happens. Feds get involved AFTER it is known that they NEED to get involved. They are tasked through FEMA for setting up com-links AFTER it is apparent that it'll be needed. This is why it takes the extra time. They need to do total recons of the area to see what they need and where they need it and ALSO set up communications because THEY don't actually DO ANYTHING other than coordinate and manage. THEY tell the Red Croos where they're needed (different from ordering them to go), the Salvation Army where THEY're needed, the DoD where they need the most SAR, the DoT where they need those buses for POST-incident evacuation......they coordinate the AFTERMATH. It's just the way it is. Chronologically, it works better if things start out at the individual level and go uphill as time passes.

As for the guvna and the POTUS bumping head over troop control. She SHOULD'VE given the fedgov complete control AT THAT POINT. At first, she had control over her Guard...and if that's all that was needed...fine. BUT, when you bring in other Guard units from out of state...or federal troops...there must be a definite chain of command or you're gonna get a bunch of commanders out there trying to justify their existance (that's a whole lot of what the NG does...justify its existance as a unit)...well, there's gonna be some command problems....WHICH can be fixed by federalizing it all and setting in place a regional troop commander to oversee everything going on. Sort of like ANY multi-national force ANYWHERE in the world. There's always a supreme commander on the ground. What SHE did was keep her troops separate from the other NG troops in the command structure...and those that were federal were outside of all of their commands. Ugly situation to be in.

You bring up an interesting question concerning local resources not being enough and the only manner in which to answer it is that FEMA doesn't make plans for local agencies. It assists local agencies in creating, drilling, post-training, feedback, etc...but it ALWAYS is dealing with, AT FIRST, local assets. THAT's why the upwards of 2000 local transit and school buses are in the evacuation plan that wasn't followed. THAT's why the evacuation plan hs OUTSIDE-but-nearby shelters to go to that have food and water nearby...AFTER you evacuate. The first and biggest problem of this entire disaster is the mentality of "it won't happen this time either" or " we've been through this before" is the first thing that really sucked. This mentality kept people in their homes...people that HAD evacuated in the past for no seemingly good reason yet stayed this time.

Putting FEMA under DHS didn't DO anything to FEMA. It was still FEMA and had the same job....it was nothign but another bearucratic redistribution in Congress that did nothing for no reason.

Well besides you never could quite find it in you to take back your obvious lies?

Care to see your ever growing list of lies....or is it all nothing to say all day?

To see how low these guys can possibly sink.

Ah yes.... UY sets the highest standards around here. The highest morality while he's calling people's recently deceased mothers, crackheads. Yeah...real high standards coming from THAT one.

UY never met a RW that he liked and likes to spew nothing but venom. No substance, no debate, no discussions, just as you correctly stated....he likes to just come trolling, throwing bombs.

Fella...you'll find that if you come here to discuss, WE can discuss. If you come here to do nothing but throw ad hominems around...well, we can do that too. I you wanna snipe your talking points and then ignore the refutation of them while you're moving to your next talking point, well, you're not getting anything here. I treat others as I am treated.....and if you come here to illogically screw with me on your first post...you're not gonna get much of my time. Most of the frankies will just go away when they are proven to be illogical...UY is more like herpes...always showing up at the wrong time and ruining YET ANOTHER decent discussion......but he'll never go away and will never have anything positive to add.

Sarge,

Very interesting post with lots of info. Still digesting it. There are only a few things I want to say in response (watch this turn into the longest post yet...).

One does not bring provisions INTO a flood prone city

I didn't mean specifically IN the city. I was referring to resources waiting nearby, the specific location isn't important as long as its close. In fact, part of my point is that they didn't know exactly where this was going to hit, so they should have kept their preparations "flexible".

Now, overall, I would say you have some very good points. I have to admit that I did not have a very good understanding of the role of the national guard until the last few days, as I've been reading up. I can see how it is a problem for the control of these units is not easily surrendered to the federal government.

I've been slowly coming around to the position that the disaster response was probably not as bad as it first seemed. Once again, this may change as more information comes to the fore.

There are several issues here, but I think most of them can be folded up into one word: preparation. The response, such as it was, seems to have been almost inevitable based on the preparations made. Let me talk about some of the failures that ensued.

First, as I've mentioned, as I see it, the biggest missed opportunity was in improving the levees. This would undoubtedly be expensive. However, given the scale of the destruction, and after learning about the likelihood of such a thing coming to pass (very high over the long term), there was no excuse for not doing it. I think it's hard to pin this failure on anyone but the federal government.

However, my position on the aftermath has been evolving. At this time, I place most of the blame on the locals. Their evacuation plan seems very poor, and it seems true that they should have gone to the feds ahead of time and said "hey, we don't have enough resources to properly handle this" (if that's truly the case) and formed some joint plan. To me, that definitely seems like their responsibility.

Even so, the federal government doesn't get totally off the hook. Now, I agree that philosophically, the feds should let disaster planning occur at a local level and cooperate as requested. However, it should have been clear to FEMA and DHS that New Orleans was not prepared and lacked resources to handle this crisis. This particular situation is large enough in scale that I think it should have reached their attention. We know that the DHS had studied the "filling the bowl" scenario, so it's not like they didn't know. And considering both the local and national impact, I believe they should have taken a more active role in the local planning. This is not quite like planning for brushfires.

That being said, I admit that the philosophy of local planning buttressed by federal assistance applies even here. Most of the blame for the emergency response can go to the locals.

It's easy to see mistakes in hindsight. I believe that there are some things that the federal govt could do for the future to handle situations of this kind of scale. If the rules about national guard command are too rigid to alter, then I would say we have to consider some kind of federal emergency management force. Nothing huge, but a very mobile relief force that can provide supplies, transportation and policing in situations like this. But I won't blame them for this particular case, since nothing like it had ever happened befor.

Now how often does anyone really change their opinion in the midst of a debate on a forum, and then admit to it (that last is the crucial part)?

But, as I already said, I think that when you get to the evacuation and emergency response, you've already missed the best opportunity to prevent a disaster. This is beyond the scope of this particular thread, which is already beyond its original scope ("Did the governor request federal assistance?") Will people end up forgetting about the levees? I think so. It's not as sexy as emergency response. Building a levee is nowhere near as dramatic as pulling people out of a flood.

This has been my biggest problem with the whole situation. We spend all this time fixing old problems without any imagination that there could be completely different ones in our future. In my opinion, this all makes a mockery of our post-9/11 obsession with terrorism. We invested so much resources in this one issue as thouogh it was the only issue. Terrorism is DEFINITELY sexier than levees.

Also, for the record, I don't think that frank was being illogical, or deserved to be shouted down. Even if someone is being illogical, that's no reason to be hard on them. After all, if you think someone is wrong, it must be either their logic or their premises that you will find wanting.

>>UY...choose one of my stances and I'll stand by it to the death.

Bush fellating?

Check and Double Check.

The truth?

Not so much.

Remember any discussion of the Civil War and the Fort Pillow Massacre in particular?

You are not, were not and never will be interested in anything that can be called an argument Sarge.

>>UY never met a RW that he liked

Modern Day? If you meant classical conservatives or small l liberetarians I dont mind them much. Cant say I like any rampant W sycophants but to be fair I dont like a lot of Leftists or Centrists either.

And of course I bow down to Sarges superior knowledge and experience with herpes and crack.

Thanks for proving my point UY. You are not here for anything other than to push people's buttons without actually adding anything to any conversation. You are a disease, nothing more. Yeah...the pathetic child comes in saying....nothing. Why don't you just piss off and let us big boys have a discussion while you try to project your fellatio-fantasies somewhere else?

Fella...yoiu just described what they actually DO. Keep provisions flexible, as in, as soon as they know where it needs to be, it gets going towards that destination. However, this is done by the Red Cross as the first responders. That's, of course, according to FEMA plans that include the Red Cross and FEMA doesn't actually tell them what to do, just where help is needed most.....and the Red Cross is usually good at getting it there within 48 hours....just as they did this time.

The levees: You want the answer as to why they weren't built up? "Because this has never happened before in New Orleans" is the answer that the spenders in DC understand. The fedgov doesn't tend to build defenses if they don't know if they'll evere be needed and usually only deal with these things in the aftermath of what they hoped would never happen. That mentality goes from the top all the way to the individual that wouldn't leave his house that's been in his family for generations without a hurricane taking it away from them. So...they build enough to protect from the more likely event, which, unfortunately for N.O. was not this storm. PLUS, every time the ACE wanted to improve the levee system in the area, they had to fight environmental groups and media criticism for sucking billions away from other "more needed" programs.

Now...one thing you've got to do is separate "preparation" from "planning". At a crisis management level, they're 2 different things. Concerning "planning", the plans were good, they were viable, and they WOULD'VE worked to save lives had they been implemented in any manner, which they weren't. FEMA helps the local agencies to come up with the plans and did a great job helping LA and NO to do so. Plans are much easier to come up with at the local level becasue of local differences between regions. Heard someone bitching this morning on sports-talk radio about the City of Boston not having a flood-evacuation plan. If you now anything about Boston...it does not flood (other than local street drains not being able to handle sudden T-storm flash floods, but that just make certain streets unpassable. We don't flood, so why make a plan for it? I digress.....the planning (part of which is training, drilling, g etting feedback from FEMA, and implementing that feedback into the plan. ALL of this was done.

Now, preparation. This entails things that you are probably more concerned with. This is the prepositioning of supplies "near the affected regions".....well, much of that IS done, it's just not done on a scale to keep permanent storage facilities. There ARE regional facilities that store millions upon millions of MREs for this sorta thing, but they'e spread out too far to be immediately available within 48 hours. Takes time to get people to the sites, get the shit on trucks, and get the shit to where it needs to be.....thus part of the 4 day response time that's built into the plans. The red cross has many more smaller sites spread throughout the country and can get fewer supplies into the any region in a quicker manner.

Can more be done? Probably. Should more be done? Dunno. I still believe most of the problem is that the federal plan RELIES on the local plan that they helped create being followed and if it is not, it rots the relief actions from the bottom up.

However. The local plans have set up satellite shelters outside the "likely damage areas" with enough provisions for everyone to be alive 4 days later when the feds are supposed to show up.

Take the actual flooding and see it as a constant as of the storm hitting. The flood was happening independently of any of the crisis management plans that are designed to save lives. What cost lives in this situation? First, it was the local mentality that I probably would've shared with them had I been there and the storm was a lesser category. That being the "We evacuated last time and nothing happened" and "we've lived through hurricanes here before and nothing happened". These mentalities not only kept people in their homes for too long AND steered the local authorities to not follow the full evvacuation plan. That mentality at the personal level cost lives. That mentality at the parish level cost lives. That mentality at the city level cost lives. At the state level? Well, I won't really bash her for the mayor's responsibility....other than seeing that he wasn't following the plan and smacking the shit outta him for not doing so.

Yes, nost FIRST-0response is at the local level until FEMA can gear DoD and DoT resources to the area.....and I fault them for not getting tens if not hundreds of helos there for SAR missions in the first 48 hours. Yes, there were some there from the Coast Guard, but not anywhere near the limit of what COULD'VE been there.

Yes, it's quite easy to see mistakes in hindsight....and what you just pointed out is EXACTLY the 2nd mission of the individual state National Guards. The guvna should've and probably DID call them up preemptively as they do up here before any big-assed winter storm. However, anyone that's actually been in the Guard can tell you that THAT takes time itself. Hell, we were on 30 day recall and only those that were in-town will be of help. Those on vacation or elsewhere for other reasons are of no help and the entire unit is useless for the first 24 hours of a call-up.

Concerning the rules of the militaries. They're set up that way for a reason. States get their own militias to deal with their own problems.......or to get called for federal service in war-time. To transfer units to another state for even a short unscheduled time period takes getting through that beaurocracy....otherwise, it's an illegal violation of a state's rights. Same thing with unrequested federal troops. Can't be done except when particular "Acts" are invoked as an emergency procedure....and those acts don't include natural disasters because THAT's what the NG is for. It's weird, it's not always logical, but that's how it works.

Come on now Fella....you expect the government to actually plan and spend money for something in a hypothetical future for something that has not ever happened? Never gonna happen. The fedgov is a reactionary entity concerning things like this. So, they come up with a plan to spend less money and build a less-reliable levee.......BECAUSE, it has never happened. Wish the gov was more perfect, but it's as flawed as it's always been and always will be.

....and my problem with frankie is just that he's an ad hominem thrower using lame tactics like UY uses. The whole "those that disagree with him are 'lackeys' or 'branwashed' or (fill in the blank with whatever other baseless personal attack you can think of)" All THAT does is get me to pay little attention to him and have discussions with those that choose to do the same instead. AND in case you missed it, YESTERDAY, the media finally caught onto the fact that the guvna never formally requested federal troops as mandated by law (which I pointed out and was, of course, illogically branded a "lackey" for).....of course, that criticism went away as quickly as it came since it couldn't bash Bush. CNN did a little interview about it and she floundered in her incompetence because she doesn't know the difference between requesting federal assistance and reuqesting federal troops. Frankie's actions just told me he wanted to pin this all on Bush and use ad hominems on those that disagree with his POV, thus he's not worth the time and he'll soon be gone from here just like all the other trools minus UY. That's what they do.

>>You are not here for anything other than to push people's buttons without actually adding anything to any conversation.

I make a comment, you say "Thas jsut SPECULATION"!!!!111 or say its a red herring.

I post a link that isnt dumbed down and you complain.

This place is ripe with ad hominems and you arent a slouch either and yet its my problem.

And of course you rely on either semantics or outright bs when you do get called out.

I decided a while ago its not my fault your vagina aches.

>>fact that the guvna never formally requested federal troops as mandated by law

Which law? The current reorginization was made to bypass red tape, she asked for assistance and FEMA and the feds dropped the ball.

The big boys are having a nice, calm discussion....piss off child and take your complete ignorance of FEMA, emergency management, and the military with you.....gather up all the lies you've been told over the past 2 weeks, and stroll out the door. Clearly, you have nothing to add but yoiur lies.

I don't have a lot of time now so one of my Epic Posts will have to wait until later. But there are a few things I'd like to say.

First, I'm willing to accept that the federal response to the disaster was not criminally negligent. I'd raise an eyebrow at anyone who said it was good or even decent, but my opinion is that the left smells blood, and they can't help themselves. I've cautioned a lot of people who share my negative views about the president about getting ahead of themselves. Maybe I just know smart people, but to a person they have ended up at least partially agreeing. It just takes a little while to get over that desire to have at him.

However, I don't buy your defense of the lack of raising the levees. I don't really care who is in office or how deeply entrenched the bureaucratic culture is. The facts were right there, plain as day. It was so simple: if NO got hit by a cat4+ hurricane (or maybe even a 3), it would be entirely flooded. As we know, most of the city is below sea level. And how often do such hurricanes hit New Orleans? One calculation I saw was that over a thirty year period (the average mortgage), there was about a 10% chance. To me, that is simply and totally unacceptable. There is NO excuse for that. It really doesn't matter who was president. If it turns out that this information was around when Clinton was in office, I will gladly blame him, as well.

That's about it. Of course, I'm still open to developing information. If it turns out that this report came out in 1985, I'll pin the blame on all the presidents from Reagan till Bush. If it turns out that the cost of raising the levees would have been $100 trillion, I will reluctantly agree that the price is too high. Etc. I especially can't accept this kind of defense for a president who has promised from the beginning how he would cut through the Washington culture and a lot of similar stuff that I never believed, anyway.

I really hesitate to get involved with this silliness with Um Yeah. It is my policy to avoid conversations that are zero-value. All I want to say is, Um, if these guys are so bad, you should just go. Go somewhere where you agree with people. Normally, I advise people to seek out opinions contrary to their own. But if you can't resolve your differences, you might as well move on. Otherwise, all you do is spread negativity. I really just don't get it.

Both sides tend to demonize each other, and imagine that the people who they disagree with are just plain evil or something like that. This has only gotten worse, to the point where libs and cons can't even communicate. Is this the begining of the end of democracy? Sometimes I think so. It's definitely very unhealthy for our republic.

What law?

The whole entire purpose of putting FEMA under the DHS was to cut through the red tape.

As of March 1st 2003 it was the feds job.

Notice how Sarge tries a weak deflection?

Fella....precisely. Glad you have a grip on the attack-dogs mentality.

I do not give a defense of why the levees were only UPGRADED to handle a Cat3 storm...only an "explanation" of why and the mentality that helped ALL of them to do so. One can poke sticks at federal funding all they want, but then someone else can poke sticks at all the LOCAL waste of millions in area building $300 million Superdomes instead of paying for civil protection. It's about priorities from the local all the way up to the federal......and attempting to build levees that would withstand CAT5 storms (which still might not work) was not a priority to them because it had never happened before...so they built a multi million dollar bike-trail instead...or found some "other" unnecessary pet project to blow the cash on.

Where else could UY go to add nothing to conversations....trying to turn every conversation into his nothingness? "Other places" just ban his say-nothing ass and get on with their day. PLUS, you have to understand that UY falls into the category you've set up as "he can't help himself" and "he won't get over it". Sit back and watch as he adds nothing to any discussion here.

UY...you have no clue what the purpose of putting FEMA under the DHS was and your incorrect opinion is noted. Putting FEMA under DHS did nothing to FEMA itself except to put FEMA under the Executive branch's most apt department, you know...the new department set up to handle these sorts of things....and only restructured something that didn't need restructuring and added another layer of beaurocracy that wasn't needed. I suppose YOU would've just put FEMA into the Education Department and gone on with your pathetic life. PLUS, putting FEMA (a federal agency) under the DHS (another federal agency) did not change any of FEMAs jobs, jurisdictions, responsibilities, or authorities on your newly favorite date to spew. Before that date, FEMA had a very particular job to do that you have no clue about. After your latest favorite date to spew, FEMA had the EXACT same job to do that you have no clue about. If you want to actually, you know, put together an argument for a change instead of spewing your worthless opinion...run along and find out what FEMA's job actually is instead of using the whole "it was their job" lie....that's right, THAT is a lie. I'll just put it in my favorite "UY lies" folder. Run along little child...you've got a whole lotta learning to do while us big boys have a discussion that doesn't include your incorrect opinions.

Law? Try learning something about martial law and it's lesser kin that's been used with the exception that it allows the civil courts to continue to function, why we have the ability to declare it and why the POTUS cannot just go into a state with federal troops without either a formal request from the governor of that state or invoking the insurrection act or a formal Congressional suspension of habeus corpus. Try, if you have the balls to actually, you know, LEARN something, to look up the Posse Comitatus Act and fully understand it and why the POTUS cannot just put troops into a state without a formal request from the governor or evoking the Insurrection Act. Otherwise IT WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW. Then you can take your incorrect opinions and smoke 'em up tonight with the rest of your pathetic lies.

>>IT WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW

Which law?

...Hit comment to soon...

>>IT WOULD BE AGAINST THE LAW

Which law?

Posse Comitatus?

Thats only forbidden for law enforcement purposes.

And you have any inkling whatsoever to what an anachronism it is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

So now we know why it took you so long just to mention what particular law youve been babbling about.