Stares

Yawns and scratches self

Goes back to work

William, you seem to keep bringing us stories from page 6 of the New York Post. I've traveled to 17 countries and the only one I didn't really care for was Tunisia, although I did enjoy my visit to the Carthage ruins. The Egyptians were some of the most pleasant people I have ever met. I also met some wonderful people in Haifa, Israel... although, interestingly enough, most of them weren't even Israeli. They were Russians who had relocated to Israel.

Just some useless information for you. Tunisia is the location of the Tatooine filming for the various Star Wars installment. You know, Jabba the Hut's home.

Anyway, I loved seeing each of these 17 countries, but I must say, when I'd returned to the States, I was very happy to be home.

Think about this.

If you came down with severe appendicitis and needed emergency surgery, where would you rather be? Cairo or Chicago?

Damn right.

I'd also bet that if the leaders of other countries needed major surgery, more than half of them come here for it.

Penn is right. The USA sets the standard for the world, and they should thank us for it rather than resent us for it.

I did enjoy my visit to the Carthage ruins.

What was that like? How much is still there?

I dont want to be shown as ignorant but I was under the impression the Romans burned everything to the ground.

What id really like to see is Angkor Wat.

Most of it is destroyed, but there are still some partial structures intact. There was actually one underground chamber that I was able to enter. The area is kind of like a park. You pay to get in and you can walk the ruins with or without a guide. The area is fairly large. The system they had for running water is still very evident. Baths with troughs carved into the stone for water. Some standing pillars but most are lying in sections on the ground. Very interesting place. The URL below provides a sample image.

http://geosciences.smsu.edu/Faculty/Mickus/tunisia/tunisia/20031017-174821/DSCN0882.JPG

Hi gmhsmith,

Oh you’re so right. It’s a living hell to have been born outside the US. Our bleak lives stumble on denied of culture, medicine, freedom or even intellectual thought. We roam the streets where strange women dressed as batman leave children in the gutter in the hope they will die never being able to raise our thoughts about such elevated concepts of equality. As Mr Jillette say our country is just a piece of shit and we can only look on in awe that you are such a great nation yet manage not to have the holier than thou attitude that dogs our wretched existence. Yourself, William and Mr Jillette are certainly an example to me about the lack of a holier than thou attitude to be found amongst Americans and I can only say I will try to learn.

I had to look up appendicitis, it’s known here as Stomach Hurty Thing (SHT) in the UK, but we have the very best treatment that our doctors know, 3 leeches a day and an extra bowl of pottage. And to our eternal shame we don’t even charge those wrong doers who selfishly get SHT. I’m sure the pathetic fool we call our Prime Minister if ever he got SHT would rush to your shining land where I believe you have what you call “hoppitals” - for any other foreigner reading this hoppitals are places where they have more than 3 doctors gathered together. Such is the equality in America that some of these doctors are women (not dressed as batman – if you can believe such a thing!).

I know your brilliant President St. George of Oilmoney will soon visit our northern lands and I am sure many of my fellow country men will gather to cheer and thank him personally for being our inspiration. It would be difficult for us to live our miserable lives without the knowledge that there is somewhere better out there and for that of course we thank you for this.

Hi UY & JNE,

Not been to either place, but if you ever get a chance go on safari – I went in Zambia where after we went white water rafting down the Zambizi (sp?) from the splash pool at Victoria Falls. The thing I really want to do is snorkel in Lake Malawi where there are thousands of different tropical fish. Of course I hope I won’t get SHT while there I here they have really substandard leeches over there. That or the Acropolis – I’ve wanted to sit on its steps and read Plato’s Republic for an afternoon ever since Uni.

On Carthage, yes JNE most of it destroyed, but there are still a few rocks lying around to see if someone hasn’t nicked them eh? ;-)

UY if you want to see Hadrian’s Wall there’s more of that left, but I here it’s going the say way.

I’m having to make do with a couple of long weekends in Paris and Amsterdam this year, but it’s years since I got abroad so I’m really looking forward to it. I haven’t been to Paris for about 20 years when I went with some mates and we ran out of money and had to spend the night sleeping on a park bench under the Eiffel Tower. Romantic it was not – but it was fun.

I don't care for Penn and Teller, no real lovers of America. Hey Brit, I don't think gmhsmith was referring to England with his comment. But, you must, in all intellectual honesty, admit that your medical is compromised.

Obviously I meant medical care.

sorry lisa, as someone that is uninsured, i can tell you that our system has some severe problems.

(also, britain is included in "everywhere outside of the USA")

I was referring to his comment about Cairo or Chicago.

mattk, since you brought it up, WHY are you uninsured? Believe me, I know what that is like. You don't have to say if you don't want to.

There's plenty of people running around in $600,000.00 houses driving leased lexus's without medical insurance. Usually younger people. Because medical insurance (if not offered by your employer, although sometimes even if) is very freakin expensive here.

There are reasons for that, but that is entirely off topic I think.

Suffice to say, Jilette does hint at some valid points in there, albeit in a very crude way. But you really can't look too much into that. He was making these comments to a US audience after all. Don't think we (at least some of us) don't hear what half the euro's say when they think we aren't listening. In the case of the French, even when we are listening.

And you really shouldn't be surprised if we find this sort of stuff humorus and, even if we disagree, gratifying after all the crap we've heard in the last 6 years.

It's almost possible not to disagree. The statement is so broad and generalized it cannot be true. But I think an American reads that very differently then anyone else would.

don't care for Penn and Teller, no real lovers of America.

Huh?

Hi Lisa,

Good to hear from you. On gmhsmith and his Chicago or Cairo comment maybe he wasn’t thinking of Britain, then again maybe he just wasn’t thinking. So he wants the rest of the world to thank the US for setting the standard. This guy is a fool. And this after I’ve read Penn saying

Other countries are pieces of shit, so they have a holier-than-thou attitude.

Oh yes what fun to have this guy preaching about our holier than thou attitude. And yes as mattk said England (and even Britain) is outside the US – so it is another country.

On our medical care – no question it isn’t perfect and I’m happy to admit it (well not happy, but you get my point). We have the NHS and private health care – I’m willing to bet that our private health care is as good as yours. Plus we have the NHS which provides care for most people – and it’s not that bad. In fact for Stomach Hurty Thing or even appendicitis my guess is that the NHS is probably as good as in the US.

My Mum had breast cancer about 10 years ago and yes I think if resources were unlimited she’d have had better care, but she did have damn good care. I’m not sure what the price of a mastectomy and the attendant care and after care is in the US – but here it’s free at the point of need. And nobody has to worry about his or her insurance running out because they are an increased risk, unemployed or being priced out because they are too old to be a viable insurance risk.

Medical care is always going to be improvable – essentially it’s virtually a bottomless pit (just ask Christopher Reeves family). But I like our system – definitely not perfect but not too shoddy either.

(also, britain is included in "everywhere outside of the USA")

Wow! Nothing gets by you. Thanks for the sublime geography, history and political lesson.

Deep, penetrating wisdom.

Lisa - The reason why I am uninsured is because I don't work for a corporation. The vast majority of people in this country have health insurance through their employer or spouse. I'm young and unmarried.

How much would it cost to insure me? Nearly $600/month....and I'm healthy.

Wandering Brit... Who? Me? Nahhh! lol. You've got a good memory. I'll leave it at that.

Lisa and Smith, it is a common misconception that medical care in foregin countries is inferior to the U.S. Indeed, the U.S. does have the most advanced medical facilities in the world, but most of us will never have access to the best medical care the U.S. has to offer. Medical insurance companies and HMO's see to that. There are only a small number of people who have access to that kind of care. For the other 95% of us, the medical care we receive is on par with what is received in many other countries. The military will readily medivac service members to Greece, Italy, France, Germany, England, etc. There are some differences to be sure and some of the practices are viewed as archaic, but research has shown that the success rate is on par with that of the U.S. Every service doctor I know who have visited foreign hospitals indicate the there is no deficiency of care. Different, but not deficient.

I'd say it's more of a local issue then a national issue.

If I come down with some life-threatening illness, I'd MUCH MUCH rather be in a hospital here in Chicago then in northwest Wisconsin. Just doesn't have the same equipment, training, resource/employee pool, pay, helicopters to get you the hell to another hospital for things they can't handle, ect.

Of course if you've been bit by a rattle snake, you're probably better off in middleofnowhereton Arizona then NY.

I don't think I'd worry about a hospital in London or Berlin.

I sure as hell would worry in Tiajuana.

MJ, most small hospitals are within an hours flight of a major medical facility. All hospitals are held to the same standard of care and must all follow COBRA rules. If a hospital cannot handle a case by themselves, they can stabilize and transport via helicopter. The only exception that I would cite would be Alaska. You take your chances in Alaska because one paramedic might cover an area the size of Connecticut.

The major problem of people not receiving the best care possible though is HMOs and medical insurance companies. If it's experimental or very new science, your insurance company will, in all likelihood, not cover it. If the treatment or diagnostic procedure is costly, they might object and require a less costly alternative..., even if the alternative is less accurate or effective. Doctors are given incentive bonuses by insurance companies for opting for less costly procedures and testing. Doctors don't order lab testing that may be considered useful information, but not critical for diagnosis. Such lab testing will often give the doctor a better foundation for diagnosis and treatment, but insurance companies won't pay for non-essential procedures and such behavior will void a doctor's or hospitals bonuses from the insurance companies. The name of the game is money people and medical care is a commercial business. If you can't afford a Cadillac, you're going to get a Chevy instead.

the whole idea that our healthcare system is better because its free market is completely BS. The only people that _might_ favor would be the rich. Yes, you have your choice of doctor, hospital, and health insurance - but its all the same system and all operates the same.

Just because there is a free market does not mean it is inherently efficient - without competition, you'll be given as little for as much as they can take from you.

Of course, the alternative is that we go to socialized medicine, Canada style, and mandatorily degrade any and all medical care to the lowest common denominator.

It would certainly be more 'fair', except to the people who you know, actually worked alot, but more importantly, it would do wonders to help our overpopulation problem!

MJohnson - Plenty of people in this country work a lot and don't have healthcare. ...of course, there is no reason why this would degrade healthcare, particularly for those who "work a lot" as you put it.

Now, why are drugs so much cheaper in Canada than in the US? Seems like they know some things we don't.

Yes. They know they don't have to pay for R&D because the US will do it for them.

And no, I'm not being facetious.

Many other western countries (in all the wisdom of the omnipotent governments of bipartisan variety) have regulated the hell out of medication because they simply feel it costs 'too much'. Drug companies all over the world relocate to the US, and more significant drug breakthroughs are made in the US then any other country.

Not because we are more scientifically advanced. We really aren't. But because we allow the drug companies to charge $80 for a bottle of medication that only costs $15 to manufacture. Whereas Canada mandates that Pheizer (or whoever) can only sell it for $30 and make a modest profit on the drugs they have, companies in the US market actually have money left over to cover the astronomical and risky (sometimes yieldless) process of research and design. Hundreds of millions (even billions) of dollars get poured into research for years, even decades, and sometimes no suitable result is even produced. Sometimes a result IS produced, but 'new' drugs allways run the risk of side effects which creates liabilities.

The easy solution would be to cut the cost of medicine, regulate it. Like all the other governments do. The problem is, if we do that, who the hell is going to pay for R&D?

How many people die every year because they cannot afford the proper medicine? Honestly, there are probably some. It is indeed a problem. Or perhaps more aptly, how many people have to eat bolognia for the 7th time this week in order to keep the blood pressure down?

But, you MUST consider, how many lives will be saved by new medicine? How many uncureable diseases have been cured in the last 100 years, how many more can be cured in the next? How many lives does THAT amount to?

THATS why our medical costs are so damn high. Yes, they are freaking outrageous. (and there are other factors as well, liabilities, litagousness, and the fact that our HMO scheme basically has everyone spending everyone elses money, which creates a lack of respect for costs. Doctors don't feel as bad gouging Insurance companies, who in turn don't feel bad gouging doctors, but in the end it is the patients that pay.)

Socialized medicine is NOT the answer.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006813

If I were to propose my own healthcare plan, I would focus MUCH much less on making sure people were insured. I'd rather see prices fall to a point where you would not HAVE to be insured, because medical would actually be affordable.

The insurance companies I am no fan of, and that's an entirely different topic. But suffice to say this extra (and profit minded) middle man is not going to help us lower costs all that much.

Since research and design of new medical procedures and drugs DIRECTLY benefits the whole of the nation, and the national entity itself, I would suggest that we phase out paying for peoples medical care and insurance, and begin in it's place to pay all hospital and pharmaceutical R&D costs. Initially, SOME regulation and oversight will be required to make sure the industries follow with the new policies and begin lowering costs and not sprinting for the CEO retirement finish line, but as a general rule the less you need, the less you should regulate, the better off you are.

Rather then being concerned over who has (or hasn't) insurance, we should be concerned with making medical care realistically affordable without any insurance at all. (the former will worsen the PRICE problem on top of other associated problems experienced by the other countries that have them, unless you also like those countries regulate the industry, which is what I started talking about up top....remember, lives at stake?)

It would also help a hell of a lot if countries like Canada pitched their weight, but fat freakin chance that will happen. Hah. Har har. Good laugh.

As tempting as it is to try and do something about the 'unfairness' factor for a guy like me, (like tariffing all exported pharmaceuticals, since most of the drugs BOUGHT in Canada for $30 are the same drugs MADE in the US and SOLD in the US for $80) I have thought much about this and come to the conclusion that there is absolutely nothing we can do that wouldn't hurt us more then it hurt anyone else, and it may all well backfire, as I do not regard such liberal governments as at all logical, reasonable or predictable and you can't really count on what crazy ass thing they might try do in any given situation.

We do get all the pharmeceutical companies working here, meaning we get all the high paying and highly educated jobs. That's the beauty of our system, you don't allways see capitalism working, because it's a bigass system, but it often is. Tempting as it may be to screw it with at times, you just have to remember that 99% of the time your infintely better off in the long run if you just sit on your hands and stop hyperventilating.

This rant will self-destruct in 5...4...3..

We _do_ regulate the hell out of the drug industry - or we intend to - we have an agency dedicated to it, the FDA.

Is it fair for the US to be subsidising drug research for the whole world? If the drug companies are willing to sell a drug for $15 in Canada - why can't they sell it for that much in the US? Are they really willing to lose money selling drugs everywhere in the world but the US?

Of course drug companies are going to argue that it is necessary that we pay whatever they want for the drugs they make. BUT they're also a for profit business. Some of that money is definitely going to line their pockets.

All businesses have risks, not just medicine. Why should medical research get special consideration for it?

I definitely agree that insurance companies are evil.

I simply don't accept that people must go uninsured because the drug industry needs money. Anyone who is okay with the idea that some people will go without healthcare probably haven't been without healthcare. Its ridiculous how our society decides who's physical well being should be protected and who can go without.

Mattk, as I stated, it is not at all 'fair', but there is simply no other choice, unless we intend to let drugs go un-researched. That will not help us in the end. What's best for us is not to cut off our noses to spite our faces, so to speak, or spite our northern neighbors.

The drug companies don't sell at a LOSS to Canada and Mexico, no. But they don't sell high enough to cover R&D either. It is better for the companies (and cheaper for us) if they are allowed to sell cheap drugs to the rest of the world for a TINY profit, it still helps to offset SOME of the cost that we are paying the bulk of.

The FDA doesn't regulate anywhere near what Canada does, especially in the realm of PRICING.

As far as medical research getting special consideration, and people being uninsured...well..you apprently don't understand them because you split them all apart. That was what my whole rant was about.

The whole point of not worrying about insurance was not to simply 'let people go unprotected', but we could do that BECAUSE the 'special consideration' for the medical industry would drop the cost in medicine. It's not that you'd be 'unprotected' but that you could protect yourself without NEEDING health insurance.

As far as what makes them different from other businesses, I think that's self explanitory. As I said, the health of the nation and the advancement of it's medicine not only effects every single person within the nation, but the nation (as an entity) itself, so it does have a significant interest here. AND, because R&D is something that will progress the country as a whole and is directly in the interest of the government to develop new medicine and procedures.

Of course drug companies are going to argue that it is necessary that we pay whatever they want for the drugs they make. BUT they're also a for profit business. Some of that money is definitely going to line their pockets.

Yes, of course it is. They ARE a business, after all. Profit does in fact motivate them to do better and greater things. You can't force them to do it for free. (well you can, but wake up. The Soviet Union didn't work.)

Too many people seem to think there's something wrong with making a profit. There's nothing wrong with profit. I don't see YOU working for free. Tell me, do you chastize yourself for your greedyness in the mirror every night for insisting your employer actually pay you, and not just in bread (as in the kind you eat)?

But if you stop and think logically, it's absurd to suggest that the pharmeceutical companies are making a profit of $60 on an $80 bottle of medicine in the US, the SAME bottle that US COMPANIES EXPORT TO CANADA to sell for $30 at a $10 profit. That's simply not realistic, that's NOT all profit, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

The vast majority of the extra $60 is diverted to research and design, and new drug testing and marketing costs.

In fact, probably all of it is diverted. They make about the same margin in the US as they do in Canada, the same amount in both cases actually goes into their pockets as net profit.

Hi MJ, I’ve been thinking what to reply to this since you wrote it

Suffice to say, Jilette does hint at some valid points in there, albeit in a very crude way. But you really can't look too much into that. He was making these comments to a US audience after all. Don't think we (at least some of us) don't hear what half the euro's say when they think we aren't listening. In the case of the French, even when we are listening.

And you really shouldn't be surprised if we find this sort of stuff humorus and, even if we disagree, gratifying after all the crap we've heard in the last 6 years.

It's almost possible not to disagree. The statement is so broad and generalized it cannot be true. But I think an American reads that very differently then anyone else would.

Since I’ve been on this site I’ve had some flak for not being American and some quite specifically for being British. When I disagreed on couple of occasions I’ve been told I’m jealous and how much the British owe Americans for WWII. I’ve seen Mexico described as a “shithole” in direct reply to a Mexican. All sorts of insults fired at the Netherlands – not the person but specifically the country including describing the Netherlands as insignificant (not the word used I’m afraid) – just for the record it’s the 14th largest economy in the world. The word Canada seems to be a shorthand word for inferior and I won’t go into the views on the French. Large parts of the world’s religious beliefs are called a “bloodcult”. Thailand apparently has a paedophile problem in part due to its religion. And aid should have been withdrawn from Indonesia less than a week after the tsunami because they didn’t want armed troops in sensitive areas. And I’ve regularly heard that the US is the “best” country and people get quite pissed off at even the slightest dissention.

These views have been expressed by a MINORITY of people here. I’m in no way saying these views are the generality but I really didn’t have to look to hard to find them. On this thread I only had to look at the top of the page.

When Penn Jillette chose to say countries other than the US are pieces of shit of course I understand it was for internal consumption and I suspect given his loud ebullient nature I might have laughed had I heard him say it. But William chose to post it here with the bon mot “Go U.S.A.” Patriotism is something I have no problem with but to paraphrase there’s something rotten in the state of the States. Don't think we (at least some of us) don't hear what some of the American's say when they think we aren't listening. In the case of the quite a few, even when we are listening.

gmhsmith’s comments that we should thank you for setting the standards for the rest of the world really were typical of a some points of view. Part of Americans stereotype at least in the UK comes from hearing these attitudes and the majority of Americans have my deepest sympathy for having to put up with the reaction of non Americans because of this stereotype.

I don’t have a suggestion, to be honest I’m just a bit fed up at seeing this crap on a thread again. Sorry to the majority who’ve commented on this thread I’m not having a go at you and that includes you MJ. And thanks in particular to those who noticed the positive outside the US and led on that.

MJohnson - I really don't think we have to subsidize drug research for the rest of the world. The only reason why we do is because our politicians are in bed with the drug industry. Let Canada say "we'd rather go without that drug than pay $5 more for it".

Yes, it would be much better if healthcare was simply affordable without insurance. I really wish that someone in politics had the balls to take on the insurance industry but things will really have to go to shit first.

As it is, the high cost of healthcare is negatively impacting our lives here in the US. It makes it more expensive for us to live and be employed.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with making a profit. BUT there is something wrong with making the price of drugs restrictively high in the name of making a profit.

Hm? We can pay 4x the canadians do for a drug and it somehow translates to the same percent profit? Sorry, but thats some bad math. If they needed to make more money and the US enforced reasonable pricing, prices would raise in canada.

Mattk, someone needs to pay for the R&D. It won't happen for free. It's either going to be the US Gov, or the US patient purchasing drugs. It's simply not going to be anyone else picking up the bulk of it.

If you try to force corners to be cut, the companies aren't going to dig into their profit. (even if they did, what good would it do if they went out of business?) You're going to be cutting into new drug research.

What cost will come with that? You can only speculate. It's impossible to quantify. Is it worth it? We can only guess. But don't fool yourself, there is a cost. There is a trade off.

How many lives can we save, how many lives can we make better? What massive and simply unquantifiable benefits to society might we discover and invent?

I'd prefer not to put less money into research.

Lisa - The reason why I am uninsured is because I don't work for a corporation

Gee and I was told by omnicient Left that all corporations were eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil. So only corporate employees get health insurance?

Looks like corporate employees are much better off than all others.

It’s 2pm GMT AND Live8 has just started here.

If you don’t know it the UK and in particular Tony Blair and Bob Geldorf have been planning to hijack the G8 meeting to talk about poverty in Africa. The negotiations are still going on behind the scenes as to what will be announced at the end of the meeting.

Increased aid and debt relief are essential and it looks like for a large part a lot of progress has been made on these issues.

Perhaps the biggest issue that will affect Africans lives that we can change is trade barriers and fair trade. Trade barriers in the EU, America and Japan are holding these people in poverty. If you’re a conservative surely fair trade is a matter of principle for you, if you’re a liberal surely helping those in difficulty is a matter of principle for you.

As one example Nigeria is an oil rich country and this week I heard that Nigeria gets to keep only 11% of the value of their oil.

Please lend your voice to this issue. Political leaders have to follow the voices of the people and it’s a disgrace for all the people in our countries that this situation continues.

Every three seconds someone dies in Africa from poverty. So if your reading this 1 minute after I posted it – that’s 20 people, 10 minutes = 200 people, 1 hour = 1200 people, 1 day = 28800.

This is not about charity it’s about justice.