Sorry, but i think its a sad day when we, as a country, need to sit and discuss what exactly torture is and isn't - because we might cross the line. Certainly, if these things were being done to American troops we would consider it barbaric.

Apparently America isn't sure what humane treatment is anymore.

Acording to the Geneva conventions a civilans caught in arms are to recieve a drum head court and then shot.

The Convention mentions that you should not execute those under 18, if possible.

I have a question. In 1968 we were coming out of the field and were waiting a pick up in Cu Chi, next to the National Police Station, a bomb exploded, minor dings, Kerry type purple hearts, I popped a BB with a thumb nail from under a buds skin, his 7th, never went home.

The purp was a 4 year old coke girl who was paid 500 Piasters by a 25 year old guy to plant the IED. 500p was 25 kilo's of rice at the time.

Who had the most culpablility the 4 year old or the 25 year old?

The National Police let the guy go, lack of evidence, for what ever reason, we killed him later during an ambush, his old man was the Local VC leader and local barber.

Should we have held him longer?

Bill

Sorry, but i think its a sad day when we, as a country, need to sit and discuss what exactly torture is and isn't - because we might cross the line. Certainly, if these things were being done to American troops we would consider it barbaric.

The how the flying **** do you intend to NOT cross the line if you think you're above TALKING about it?!? Wow!

WOW!

That's extreme. How far away from torture must we go to be sure we're no where near it without ever bothering to define it? Say it like it is matt: You don't want us to be able to do ANYTHING to interogate prisoners.

Durbin should be vilified as the traitor he is. The only reason there is "discussion" is because bleeding heart libs open their big mouths and spout nonsense about "torture". Torture? Shivering terrorists, hot terrorists, rap tormented terrorists,[well,I might give them that one], fingers-pointed- at terrorists. Whooooo! Sounds really bad to me! Yeah, just like Pol Pot, Nazi's, and Gulags. Durbin is a liberal ass, and a moron, AND a traitor.

Tell me, how long does a prisoner need to boil or freeze before they start to tell the truth?

No one wants to respond to this - we wouldn't accept this behavior from our enemies.

mattk, nobody "froze" or "boiled". We didn't employ a shredder. Accept this behavior? We should be so lucky mattk, remember sawing off heads?

The main point of contention is sleep deprevation Lisa.

It is torture.

um yeah, having had three children, I want to agree with you, but, if I could survive it, so could the detainees.

"Apparently America isn't sure what humane treatment is anymore."

quite the contrary... i'd say everyone knows the difference between torture and humane treatment, however, it's the liberals who aren't sure who is protected from torture, and who isn't.

that and liberals are full of glee when Americans are tortured, and are outraged when terrorists are tortured.

that and liberals are full of glee when Americans are tortured, and are outraged when terrorists are tortured.

Ummmmmmmmm, ok sure.

Tinfoil hat?

I could survive it, so could the detainees.

Unless you had an insanely difficult birth you are just being dishonest.

Bill, Grab Lisa by the hair and drag he into your cave, then what?? I don't know?? Beat her she can take it. Why you, because you are living in the dark ages...Nam was forty years ago. Try to be civilized.

I think Durbin is an Al Qaeda operative.

Sleep deprivation as torture? Something most Americans do voluntarily every day. I heard a soldier talk about two days in combat with two hours sleep. Do you even realize what a dipshit you are UY?

Russ:

Your problem is that you never saw somebody blown to small pieces, kind of messy and disgusting, even if you didn't like the person.

War is War, people get dead in various and unusual ways, not all of them nice.

The point is, it seems that the terrorists in Gitmo are being treated better than Marines were in basic, in my time anyway, they are being mistreated, get real.

They eat better for one.

Bill

I heard a soldier talk about two days in combat with two hours sleep.

We are talking days and weeks here.

Do you even realize what a dipshit you are UY?

I think Durbin is an Al Qaeda operative.

Compared to you?

Do you even realize what a dipshit you are UY?

Yes. That's why he insists on surpassing it every day.

The boy has ambition.

UY, "we are talking days and weeks here"? No, you are talking about days and weeks here... all we get from the text of Durbin's speech is: on this occasion ..., on that 'occasion'... Where you come up with a timeframe is beyond the scope of the posted text, please cite your contrary information if it is credible.

BTW Im sure on a scale from 1 to 10 for the inhumanity of torture... loud rap music or a horrible thermostat is right up there with nazi gas chambers and live human experiments... or soviet slave labour camps... or Columbian genocide.

UY do you honestly subscribe to this egregious analogy?

UY,

I think you missed Lisa's point. She wasn't talking about childBIRTH--she was talking about having THREE CHILDREN, which means she hasn't slept in a long, long time.

I know EXACTLY what she means.

And I'm not sympathetic to terrorists who are suffering in the 100 degree heat--the same heat WE have here. Or freezing in the air conditioning--just like WE do when we pick one of those restaurants that want to get people out fast, so they turn up the AC so you'll leave.

I am NOT sympathetic to terrorists. I don't think they should even BE detained, once they are captured in combat. They should be shot. End of problem.

But so long as we apparently aren't allowed to shoot them, and have to find somewhere to put them, pardon me if I'm unconcerned that it's not a comfy-cozy place, especially when we bend over BACKWARD to make sure they have their Korans and their special diets and get to face the right direction so they don't have to kill themselves from shame and can go on feeling good about all the infidels they're flying to eternity on the bodies of.

And don't tell me Middle Easterners aren't already USED to 100 degree temperatures. It's our soldiers I feel sorry for--the ones who get no sleep because they have to be watching for terrorists, or fighting 3-day battles with them. The ones who are out every day in full battle gear in the 100-degree heat and the sand and the fleas. The ones who know they might not get to come home to this country where their elected representatives are bent out of shape because the enemy isn't comfortable.

Dick Durbin is not worthy to polish the boots of those men and women.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/june-2005/14/international10.php

And don't tell me Middle Easterners aren't already USED to 100 degree temperatures.

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/countries/afghan.htm

CLIMATE: Afghanistan has a continental dry climate with large differences between day and night temperatures as well as quick seasonal transitions. Summer temperatures in the plains can reach 46 degrees Celsius (115 degrees Fahrenheit) while in the higher plateaux winter temperatures can fall to -26 degrees Celsius (-15 degrees Fahrenheit). The "Winds of 120 Days" which occur between June to September can have velocities of up to 180 kmph (108 mph) and the rainy season is from October to April, although rainfall is very irregular. Average temperature ranges in Kabul are from -8 to 2 degrees Celsius (18 to 36 degrees Fahrenheit) in January to 16 to 33 degrees Celsius (61 to 91 degrees Fahrenheit) in July.

I think it comes down to SELF. Those on the left are so set in their own little world that they cannot comprehend anyone or anything beyond SELF. So, I think, it is not really about standing up for what is right, nor is it about national security (only words to them, not an actual, tangible, idea!) It is about how they perceive the world to see them (e.g.; 'I'm a liberal, see I CARE about people' 'I feel your pain') If anyone of them had to make ACTUAL sacrifices or compromise their precious ideology for someone else's benefit we would never hear the end of it! Plus the fact that a right-of-center, self-professed-Christian, REPUBLICAN has done more than talk of freedom, but has actually helped to start the march to freedom in the Middle East has pissed them off to no end. You see, benefitting others was suppose to be their image! The fact that a right-of-center, self-professed Christian, Republican has appointed Blacks to cabinet position other than HUD has pissed them off to no end. You see, 'helping' minorities was suppose to be their image! So, they have to find something to redeem their image of SELF. So rather than improve WHAT they do; they have to attacked the other guy; even making up flaws if they cannot find any.

The funny thing is Charles probably considers him intelligent if not profound.

Anyone here wanr to tell him the truth?

Pelosi has as much said what Charles just did. How more obvious for you do we have to make it Um Yeah?

That's suppose to be OUR issue! Republicans can't want that!

Everything that needs be said is here: http://www.lileks.com/screedblog/05/05/051305.html

"Did the 19 methods in the Bill of Cruelty itemize “poking in the chest with the finger” as a separate method, or was it folded into a general go-ahead for acting like a high-school gym teacher? "

"But a much more serious problem develops on Dec. 7: a medical corpsman reports that al-Qahtani is becoming seriously dehydrated.....

-Because they’ve been withholding water and -beating him in the kidneys with the Brooklyn -Yellow Pages while the guards belt out “Singin’ -in the Rain”?

, the result of his refusal to take water regularly. "

This guy got more medical care than anyone in non-Gitmo Cuba.

Um Yeah; Typical! Just Typical! Since YOU cannot intelligently debate the issues you go on the personal attack! So typical! Is your sarcasm suppose to say that I am not intelligent? You do NOT even know me! Yet, you attack my intelligence. How sad that you and your comments are typical for what passes for the leftist elitists nowadays!

I give you perspective from outside the United States. I live in Europe and I personally agree with "war against terrorism" its a war which has to be fought.

The Jihad is not over, so technically according to the geneva convetion (if its applied) then you hold on to the prisoners. The following is true: (1) many of the prisoners are often forced mercenaries and are not commited to Jihad. These people you must identify and let go. (2) According CBs 60 minutes a small minority are hard core terrorists. (3) This whole thing has become a public relations disaster. This can be improved by providing the prisoners with a more confortable enviroment. (4) What ever information you gain is offset by the PR disaster at adds to muslim rage and thus reqcruitment of Jihadis. (5) There is an issue of morality, what values are you fighting for ? are you purely selfish ? only you (as Americans know the answer).

If you my opinion, America is often percieved as violent in Europe, do you really need the death penalty, often to execute some semi-retarded african american ?

Elimination of internation Jihad does a great service to the world. Don't be corrupted in this process.

Certainly, if these things were being done to American troops we would consider it barbaric.

We do EXACTLY these things to our own troops in training AND in combat.....and I didn't think my instructors were "barbaric" at all.

No one wants to respond to this - we wouldn't accept this behavior from our enemies.

Pick me....pick me. WRONG!!!! We accept this behavior from our own instructors, Drill Sergeants, etc... and would gladly accept this behavior from our captives.....if they'd take the time to put the head-lopping knives down for a second.

We are talking days and weeks here.

.....and "our troops" spend days and weeks without sleep in training....let alone in combat. Ever been to pre-RIP? RIP? Ranger School? Let alone...ever been a company communications chief that never gets to sleep more than 20 minutes at a time for weeks at a time? Oh....forgot that I was talking to the coward that would never put a uniform on for his country.....let alone know ANYTHING about what real sleep depravation is.

"if they'd take the time to put the head-lopping knives down for a second."

No crap! We would 'never accept it'????? Well, what exactly would we do about it? Are we 'accepting' the fact that at the moment, our enemies keep our prisoners in a cage for 2 weeks then force them to confess to being a jew before cutting their heads off on camera?

It is like a boxing match where one side (the terrorists) are governed by no rules whatsoever. They can rabbit punch, kick, knee, gouge, bite,shoot, behead, knife etc. the opposition with impunity and the referees (the Democrats) are rooting for the terrorists to win. Meanwhile the Americans are not even allowed to give the terrorists so much as a dirty look. It should be remembered that the ONLY reason we have not been Nuked is because these "poor, mistreated" terrorists to not possess nuclear Weapons---YET.

I'm curious as to how the sins of our enemy justify our own.

Sorry, mattk, I know you'd like to live in Utopian fantasyland, but that's not the way the world works.

"I'm curious as to how the sins of our enemy justify our own."

War has a way of doing that. Unless your goal in life is to be a corpse or a Christian martyr, as a soldier you have to do what you have to do. As a law enforcement officer, you act within the realm of your authority.

Name me ONE instance of OFFICIAL US POLICY that compares to the way our enemy is treating us (which, by the way, NO ONE is prosecuting or punishing. If Lynndie England was al-Quaeda, they'd give her a party, not a court-martial.) We are NOT required to give Geneva Convention treatment to the detainees; that has been clarified repeatedly, administratively AND judicially.

So what, exactly, is the problem Durbin wants corrected?

YOU'RE the one who said 'we wouldn't tolerate that treatment of our prisoners, so we shouldn't treat their prisoners like that'.

You are, in my opinion, quite wrong. The things we do to the men we capture, we WISH they would afford such luxuries on our own POW's.

At least, I certainly wish Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi would force his hostages to wear women's hajibs while depriving them of sleep, as opposed to....well you know, decapitating them.

You call them "sins"...I do not. I was simply addressing your bullshit notion that we wouldn't put up with the treatment that we are conducting if the roles were reversed (barring the FACT that our current enemy wouldn't bother treating us so kindly...but let's not let fact get in the way of your feelings).....when we, as US soldiers, put up with worse treatment than ANYTHING we've been accused of....VOLUNTARILY...even in training.

...but good job...move to the next non-point without addressing the last one. Maybe if you change your topic quickly enough, you can befuddle some.....maybe not all...but some.

You do NOT even know me!

You were saying that "they" on care about SELF.

Meanwhile the whole entire issue about the treatment of others.

How long do people usually know you before they realise you are an idiot?

"How long do people usually know you before they realise you are an idiot?"

Um Yeah, it took me about 3.5 seconds to spot you out.

MJ,

3.5 seconds?

You need a faster connection. :-)

How long do people usually know you before they realise you are an idiot?

Day ONE of my time here......you know...when you thought there was only ONE "Sarge" in the entire on-line world.

...and you've continued to this day. Maybe it has something with your total inability to form complete sentences, constantly using unintelligible one-liner gibberish like this instead:

You were saying that "they" on care about SELF

If THAT's any indication of what goes on in your head....no wonder.

"Aaron, you hate Arabs, the Arabs are a Semitic people. Anti-Semite." - Um Yeah.

Never gets old.

How long do people usually know you before they realise you are an idiot?

UY: Faster than a 2nd Amendment guaranteed speeding bullet!

"Aaron, you hate Arabs, the Arabs are a Semitic people. Anti-Semite." - Um Yeah.

I was being facetious but Arabs are a Semitic people.

Sarge, you did and do sound exactly like the other Sarge who freely admitted he was brain damaged.

And you started posting the same as Kirk so I merely assumed you all came at the same time.

So what Im supposed to say im sorry because you seem brain damaged?

I think I'll head on down to Gitmo for dinner tonight, sounds like a delicious meal being served up!

Once again proving his complete immunity to irony. T'is lost on him. A humour he shall never know.

Funny thing is no one notices Tylers unfounded fear of black people and instead focus on the fact I confused Sarge with another irrational idot with the same name.

BTW why didnt you introduce yourself or give yourself an original name?

As you all have now learned, there is no point, except for sport, to paying any attention to Dumb? Yeah! The more atteention he gets, the more tedious, stupid and offensive he reveals himself to be.

What's the matter Shitecliffe? Can't hide from the adults long enough to try out your schtick on the youngsters? You worthless, cowardly little leftish punk, you suppurating anal wart, you sniveling, whining, drooling, lying, embodiment of all that is wrong with the left. You can run, but you can't hide.

STFU & FOAD

Posted by name jon, Imperial Hunter at December 20, 2003 03:12 PM

Sarge, how proficient has Jon's prediction been over time.

Perfect.

Specifically - The more atteention he gets, the more tedious, stupid and offensive he reveals himself to be.

Sarge, you did and do sound exactly like the other Sarge who freely admitted he was brain damaged.

Seeing as the "other Sarge" was on another website.....you were just being the moron that you are. Nice back-peddling though.

BTW why didnt you introduce yourself or give yourself an original name?

For ONE, I don't take orders from idiots like you. For TWO, there wasn't another "Sarge" here...so fuck off. For THREE, the world doesn't revolve around YOU and your lame and incorrect definitions of things so kiss my ass. For FOUR, I don't feel the need to introduce myself since it's a waste of space....so piss off.

Of course, "seeming" brain damaged compared to how YOU think would mean that I'm normal....it's about perspective.

Ahhhhhh......yet another conversation brought down to nothing more than bullshit bickering by UY.

What I find amazing is that UY USED TO make more lucid, multi-sentence objections....than he does now. Now...nothing but one-liner lame attempts at ad hominems....nothing more.

Seeing as the "other Sarge" was on another website

So were half the other posters.

I don't feel the need to introduce myself since it's a waste of space

Then dont get upset when people mistake your unoriginal name.

is that UY USED TO make more lucid, multi-sentence objections.

Yep talking to you nipped that in the bud,also made me lose my faith in humanity by the way.

He does indeed seem to be devolving. But to be honest, I think they're all devolving. The whole moonbat movement becomes more desperate and less lucent as it reaches it's deaththrows.

Yes the events of 11th September, 2001 were horrific and inexcusable. No it is not alright to torture prisoners and incarcerate them for years without lawful charges being brought against them. The reports of the atrocities committed by trained US Marines at Guantanamo Bay and Al Ghraib are beyond belief. There is just nothing that can justify these actions. Further, it seems that the underdogs in the affairs have been punished and jailed and those in command have been more or less repremanded and perhaps demoted nothing more. Disgraceful! Noel E Cain (Australia)

I disagree. I think we treat them too well.

We are literally (not a figgure of speach, but really truly) handling Korans with kiddy gloves on! That's in the rules. You've got to wear to gloves to touch the book, because the jihadists consider we infidels to be unclean.

The fact that YOU think we're treating them too harshly leads me to wonder who you'd be shooting at if a firefight broke out between police and terrorists outside your house.

So were half the other posters.

.....and those "other posters" have exactly what to do with me? Oh yeah....NOTHING.

Then dont get upset when people mistake your unoriginal name.

For ONE....I was and still am the ONLY "Sarge" ON THIS WEBSITE.....how original of me. For TWO, I'm not and never have been "upset" about you being a dickhead in thinking that there can only be ONE "Sarge" in the entire on-line world....I don't ascribe emotions to every puny pathetic non-point coming out of your vacant cavity...sorry to burst your bubble. For THREE....it wasn't you mistaking me for the other mythical Sarge on another website....it's you putting eveything HE said wherever you think you saw him...into this site...into MY words.

THAT is what makes you a dumbass.

Good ole UY....in true liberal fashion he's gonna blame HIS shortcomings on someone else. It's okay...it's not YOUR fault that you're a dumbass and can't add lucid comments into a conversation, resorting to nothing but ad hominems and non-sensical phrases.....blame Bush, blame the Republicans...blame some other "Sarge".....just don't blame yourself for being a dumbass. You're a true victim UY.

Sorry Noel.....I haven't seen anything that falls into the category I'd call "torture" or "atrocities"....especially nothing that doesn't occur to even our own military. Just because a bunch of civilians can't stomach sleep depravation or putting panties on heads doesn't make it torture. If ANYTHING, it's called "mistreatment" and is against OUR rules as set up by army regulations....hence, the punishment. Plus...it's not the Marines that are in charge of ANY of the prisons.....Gitmo prisons are run by Army National Guard troops like the 1/101st infantry out of Cambridge, MA that just got back from there. The Marines don't have that kind of force (which is the whole point of the Marines to begin with...they get their support staff from the Navy). No MPs or any other kind of REMF.....Army National Guard troops.....but I know it just sounds better to say "highly trained Marines".

Dear Noel E. Cain,

What happened at Abu Ghraib was NOT an "atrocity." It was "hazing." It was an inappropriate use of power, but it was not an "atrocity."

Save that word for lining up Jews and shooting them into trenches full of human waste. (And leaving them in it dead or alive) (Hitler's Germany)

Save that word for experimenting on women and children to find the upper limits of human pain. (Hitler's Germany)

Save that word for making lampshades out of human skin. (Hitler's Germany)

Save that word for raping women in order to breed children for use as soldiers of the state. (Hitler's Germany)

Save that word for starving people behind barbed wire to the point that, if they aren't dead, they are unrecognizable as human beings. (Hitler's Germany)

Save that word for feeding people to crocodiles. (Idi Amin Dada's Uganda)

Save that word for caves full of skulls and streets running with the blood of intellectuals turned in by their own children. (Pol Pot's Cambodia)

Save that word for state-sponsored forced abortion (China, now)

Save that word for hacking the heads of hostages (Al-Quaeda)

Save that word for feeding political enemies and women who won't sleep with you into a chipper-shredder (Saddam and Sons, Iraq)

Save it for when it's appropriate.

Putting underwear on someone's head is not an atrocity unless the head and the body are in different parts of the room--then it's called "abuse of a corpse," and I'm sure it's against the policy of the US government.

Get some perspective.

and those "other posters" have exactly what to do with me?

You started posting at the same exact time as a buttload of others I used to post with, since you had the same name as one of them....

Well Sarge you are old enough to figure the rest out.

Again Sarge W and his followers lied and brought us this war the deficit etc. they are in power who should get the blame?

The Amish?

Dumbass doesn't even understand the words HE writes, let alone others' words. You blamed ME for your downward spiral in posting lucidity.....instead of blaming yourself....pathetic liberalism at its best.....blame everyone but yourself...create false victimhood......then with the typical red herring, you bring Bush, this war, and the defecit into a conversation that Bush, this war, and the defecit wasn't in, unless you're gonna blame Bush, this war, or the defecit for your downward spiral of lucidity in your posts. You should really rotate your false blames some....maybe it was Enron or evil Hally-burton or WalMart that is responsible for your downward spiral in lucidity....maybe Reagan? Nixon?

Flounder away.....there has not been another Sarge on this site.....and in your world, there is only room enough for ONE Sarge in the entire internet. How pathetically small your world is. How IS Garden City treating you?

Um Yeah, you really don't follow up on business news do you? Deficit - shrinking faster then anyone could imagine 2 years ago.

Deficit - shrinking faster then anyone could imagine 2 years ago.

Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. Last I checked it is still enormous, try again.

You blamed ME for your downward spiral in posting lucidity.

Uh I was a joking, but sometimes I really dont even try because guys like you and MJ dont really care about making a cogent argument.

You just hold on to your spoonfed talking points for dear life.

How IS Garden City treating you?

Its fine.

Yeah....lemme know when you have a coherent on-topic thought...let alone a logical argument...something with more than a one-liner ad hominem.

Who exactly is spoon-feeding me? Name names....and I'll tell you EXACTLY how you're full of shit. I know....I can't POSSIBLY think this way all on my own.....it HAS to be spoon-fed. What a tool you are.

So, do you belong to the country club down the street?

do you belong to the country club down the street?

I used to caddy there.

How bizarre.

You kill tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani civilians, torture thousands of others, and then get upset when anyone dares to suggest that this might be problematic.

Foucault's Buddy;

Go make sand traces. The whole point of this post has been lost.

Under the Geneva Conventions, a civilian caught in arms has no rights. These maggots, sorry, rag heads, sorry, detainees, could have been shot out of hand, thay are lucky to be alive, and according to reports many of those released ain't, ran up against jacketed round in the home land.

If you are a civilian in arms and you catch a bomb or a bullit, fertilizer, if you live after the first contact you are lucky.

Buddy, volunteer to be a rag head, go to Afganistan, report back on your experiences, love to hear them.

Bill

"Again Sarge W and his followers lied and brought us this war the deficit etc. they are in power who should get the blame?

The Amish?"

YES! YES! Thank GOD someone has finally told the truth that's been buried after all these years! No longer must I hide the secret shame of my veiled brethren!

Yes, it's all the fault of the Amish! And why wouldn't it be? Who do you think runs this country--this world, even?

The AMISH.

Pretending not to care about technology, they secretly design and manipulate all the technology there is. They don't NEED phones because they ARE phones. It is from the Amish that we have gotten the chip under the skin; they've used it as their primary means of long-distance communication for decades!

Haven't you ever wondered why Amish homes have NO telephones, yet there's a PUBLIC PHONE BOOTH in every Amish town? THAT'S where they keep their secret clothes, their Swiss bank account numbers, and their advanced weapons systems!

Those aren't beards--they're transmitting devices that let every Amish community communicate with every other Amish community ALL OVER THE WORLD. At first, it was only used for personal advanced information and surveillance--like finding out whether the next village was buttoning or non-buttoning, or finding lost horses. But soon the Amish fell prey to the temptation to use their power to gather information on all of US.

So when W was elected by the first significant Amish vote in centuries, it was only natural that they gained the ear of the administration. Karl Rove gave them a place at the table, but they insisted on putting the table in a barn. W didn't mind, because he's not really a politician, he's a ranch hand-puppet that's been sent out to play the role of president so Cheney and Quayle and Rushdoony (and Marilyn, especially MARILYN) can rule the world! With their Big Oil and their Golf and their Traditional Facade, they do the bidding of the Amish. Without the Amish, there would be no oil, and without the government, the Amish would have no funny little hats.

Beware, UY. You have told the secret.

Things....happen, you know.

Unexpected things.

AMISH things.

I've said too much. I have to get out of here before somebody--