Steve, did you ever consider that bringing Microsoft to China, despite Chinese censorship of its programs, would help bring more freedom to China?

How in the hell, exactly, is it going to do that?

By helping people exchange ideas over the Internet. Giving people the ability to print things they write cheaper and easier. MicroSoft is one of the leaders of the information age, information is what brings down oppressive regimes.

Tom....I don't man. It seems to me you missed the crux.

This whole discussion is about how MS is helping China stop their bloggers from exchanging specific ideas over the internet.

Information doesn't bring down anything. Information is a tool. It can be used to bring down oppressive regimes, or it can be used to prop them up and sustain them. It can be true, or it can be fallacious.

MS is giving people the ability to write and print things cheaper and easier, but only things the government officially approves of. The 'forbidden' words like 'taiwan independence' are actually harder to find and more difficult and expensive to produce, because the world's software giant is actively working to block you off from them in all the software they're willing to distribute to you.

Perhaps you can get your hands on some foreign microsoft software, and hopefully, it's set up for your language. But since MS is the massive monopoly giant and everything is catered to MS software, and other parties often have compatibility problems, I'd say when MS tries to control the information you have access to and the speech you are allowed to express, it creates a fairly large problem.

This kind of thing is _extremely_ common. For instance, France and Germany have rules restricting Nazism that we don't have in the US. Guess what - if you run a search engine, it better not pull up pro Nazi materials in Germany or France - although it is fine to do so in the US.

Of course, you probably could have typed "human_rights" instead of "human rights" but you were probably too busy being "OUTRAGED!" to think of that.

Yeah, but MJ, as the MS spokesman said, when dealing with China, you have to go by their rules. So do you help provide blogging, cheap printing, etc., for these people, or do you not?

People are smart, they can get around using prohibited words to get their point across.

The difference is in Germany, if you put words like 'N_a_z_i_s rule!' to get around speech filters, they take you to trial in court and hand out a punishment the majority of their society deems fair.

In China, lawbreakers have an odd habit of disappearing.

I really think your trivializing this. And to compare 'hate speech' to banning all forms of bi-lateral political expression, while it applies practically, ignores completely the entire moral quandry.

Tom, next post...

time to move to Linux or Apple...

Linux being a truly open source OS is symbolic of freedom, so hey, why not.

"Yeah, but MJ, as the MS spokesman said, when dealing with China, you have to go by their rules. So do you help provide blogging, cheap printing, etc., for these people, or do you not?"

Absolutely. Microsoft is free to do as it wishes, either way. Certainly they've no legal problems here.

The thing that we must consider, is that when OUR businesses and governments work with foreign regimes like this (much like CNN working with Saddam) we are in fact aiding and abetting these dictatorships. There is no illegality in that and people are certainly free to do that, but we should consider carefully what we're involved with here.

SHOULD we, as a matter of government policy, as a matter of social standards, 'do business with the devil'? I don't think we need to get into a whole discussion about popular image of America in foreign places. What is it we're standing for? How do we deal with people like this? Don't think the Chinese don't notice. You know, Iran was recently making remarks (no news there) about how the US has allways treated Iran poorly.

Even AFTER the revolution was the point the Iran guy was trying to make. Duh. He seems to forget why. You know, the chanting 'death to America' and the hostages and embassies whatnot. And the fact that the mullahs are 50 times WORSE then the Shah was.

But the other point he made seemed to me, seemed to him to almost not be worth stating due to it's obviousness. That the US was unfair to Iran BEFORE the revolution BECAUSE we supported the Shah, who was a terrible guy.

There's also the moral issue here. If you support MS with money and apathy, and they in turn support and aid and hop into bed and 'work with' communist dictatorships, we shouldn't just ignore this. You need to ask yourself if the money is worth it, if we are not morally oblidged to keep our hands free of this, or if we are OK with the way that government treats the Chinese people.

What, exactly, should be done about all this, I think that is a rather open question. I don't know. This isn't a cut or dry, simple thing. We're really talking about shaping the future foreign policy of the US here, and how we intend to interact with despicable foreign governments who are the antithesis of everything we stand for and hold value to.

I don't have an easy answer, but I think we've had our eyes closed to this sort of 'business' going on overseas for far too long without really examining it's long term effects. I think it's far past time we pay more attention to this subject, and really examine what we're doing here. People need to be aware of this stuff.

Foreign people are at times enraged by the fact that we sit here and speak volumes about freedom and equality and human rights, and hold up our vaunted constitution and declaration and other literature which proclaims such lofty ideals that ALL people are equal. And then we turn around and cut deals with dictators to make a buck, which also makes them a buck, which allows them to hire that many more armed thugs to patrol the countryside and brutalize their people.

It's a hypocrasy that is seen abroad. And when we aid a leader that the people do not like at all, it in turn does not do well for our image. When we connect ourselves to villians, we are seen as villians. That's a large part of the hatred of America in Iran was our support of the Shah.

We're allways going with the lesser of two evils, or with 'stability' over anything else, irregardless of whoever (Whatever) the current government happens to be and how bad it is.

But in the long term, does this do us any good? Are we doing ourselves any favors? Are we doing foreign people any favors, or for that matter, are we commiting grave and callous injustice upon them without blinking an eye?

Maybe, I don't know but maybe, we need to sacrifice short term relations and set our standards higher. Sacrifice a few bucks, a bit of a better economy, in exchange for a bit more truth to our ideals. Might it be better for us in the long term, and better for us in a human sense of a soul, to take a higher ground and wipe our hands of these guys rather then getting dirty with them? We're playing 'realpolitik' economic style. If there's ever a dark side to capitalism, this would be it.

Well, my argument is that by Microsoft providing Internet and all to the Chinese, they are helping them exchange information. No, its not good that its being censored, but it's better than no Internet, right?

I see it more as helping the people of China, than helping the Chinese government. What Microsoft is proving will allow for more freedom -- even it certain words are censored. No, it doesn't live up to the free speech standards that we enjoy, but it's better than no Internet.

But, I don't know the details of the, or what they are actually providing or how much is censored, so take that all with a grain of salt.

I find it interesting that this is inspired by a simple - and rather harmless piece of software. (anyone decently motivated to get around it won't have a problem)

At the same time, we're quite happy being a gas guzzling nation - gas which comes from countries which are in many ways hostile to the US. Gas money which creates a few extremely weathly people in otherwise poor countries.

The only simple way to solve the problem is to not be dependent on foriegn countries for goods - and that would certainly shut down Walmart.

...whats up with the "CNN working with Saddam" comment?

Matt, you apparently think that other countries such as China operate the same way we do here. Typical liberal fallacy: They're just like us but the choose to have a different government. If this were true, the cute little trick you talk about would work just fine. But they not only block certain phrases and words, they monitor the content of blogs. Try that, and as MJ pointed out, you'll find yourself doing hard time in a place that makes Gitmo look like Club Med or worse yet, find your dead body in the bottom of a rice paddy.

Steve - The software is harmless, the punishment isn't. The punishment exists independant of Microsoft selling software. Explain to me again how this makes MS evil?

Further, anyone worth their salt will find a way around this. Its part of the way the internet works - you just can't competely block people from portions of it.

Perhaps the software is harmless. The intent is malevolent. And it seems to me that basic business ethics would prevent a company like MS from doing business with the Chicoms if the intent is to censor speech. And if you read the Reuters article and other info. on this, you find that China is giving it a hell of a shot in terms of censoring the Internet.

As far as MS goes, although this pisses me off, you can't get around the fact that MS in general is a great company that has done tremendous things that have made all of our lives easier. But it seems to me that if the Chicoms want to censor blog content and restrict Internet access with the intent, no doubt, of punishing people for violations, they can damn well figure out how to do it themselves. We don't need American companies making it easier for them.

"Hey....you want help in bringing state-censored internet to your people? No problem." No, matt....no matter how much you want to equate this with Germany and the anti-Naziism laws, the U.S. gas consumption, WalMart, Enron, Hally-burrrrrrrrrton, Blechtel, George W. Bush...ad infinitum.

This is about Microsoft and China and the internet browser Microsoft is providing China to help them in "looking good" to the world for providing internet to their people....while censoring the "freedom of information" nonetheless.

...you just can't competely block people from portions of it.

Truly spoken by someone that has never been "completely blocked" from huge sections of the internet by the repressive government of a country. Try going to some of the non-free countries and see how quickly you get arrested for trying to access banned websites. It's rather amazing what a government can do when THEY are the internet service providers.

Steve - MS is purely profit driven. Perhaps they have given something to the world, but its rarely the case that its superior software. ...but I'm getting off topic.

At any rate, there is no reason not to persue the chinese market. Capitalism has few provisions for asking whether its moral to give people what they want.

Sarge - The blocked internet sites can be accessed through foreign, unblocked proxy servers. The connection to these servers can be encypted. There are many legitimate reasons for using such a setup - Virtual Private Networks are quite common in corporate america today. Sure, the chinese government might go after you for it, but they don't seem to need much of a reason to go after anyone.

Well, yes, it's terrible.

It's also terrible that the Chinese government arrests Christians and tortures, imprisons, and executes pastors who aren't part of the "recognized" church.

It's also terrible that children are working in Chinese factories.

It's also terrible that the Chinese concept of birth control is forcibly aborting women who are pregnant for the second time or throwing them in prison if they resist.

It's also terrible that China employs convict labor and also takes their internal organs for sale on the open market.

And you know what? During the cultural revolution, it was also terrible that there was NO history taught in China, and no dancing was allowed, and all non-Communist religion was outlawed, and a lot of people were just lined up against the wall and shot, many of them after being turned in by their own children.

I can't think of much about China that isn't terrible except the wonderful religious revival that is happening underground and the beautiful people who are being healed, delivered, and saved, and who are becoming missionaries and risking their lives every day to bring freedom to China.

China has a bright and hopeful future. But right now it is a nasty place devoid of freedom of virtually any kind (yes, even the virtual kind.) I don't know that Microsoft can do much about it either way. The government isn't going to like the Internet, but if they can get it in there, the Internet has an amazing capacity for evading those who want to shut it down.

If you are expecting Microsoft to have a conscience, good luck with that. The social conscience of Microsoft is of the lefty variety, so you can be they won't hold (what we used to call) "Red" China's feet to the fire. They are all for "population planning" (Gates gave the UN a billion dollars and PP a ton, too). They might get a bit bent out of shape if they ever find out what happens to gay people in China, but I'm sure, in good lefty fashion, they'll find a way to overlook it.

There is another key piece of information that is critical to the whole censorship issue; that is that websites, and that includes bloggers, in China must now register with the government. Unregistered sites will be shut down. Censorship will now prevent Chinese citizens from viewing the WHOLE outside world. Even though, from a private Chinese citizens point of view, the 'internet' looks to be available to the Chinese it really isn't. Therein lies the real danger.

Exactly, Charles. The point I tried to make earlier but couldn't quite articulate.

matt....please explain to me how a person can access a blocked website through a foreign proxy server when to do so one needs to use the government server? ....and if one gets caught trying to go around the gubmint...one goes to whatever real gulag is set up for such freedom-loving people, if not worse.

You like to speak without the knowledge of how really NOT free a People can be when the government controls information. Go visit one of those NOT free countries instead of Europe this summer. See how it really is when the gubmint controls everything under the punishment of torture and death. Try Jordan....that's where I got MY first glimpse at corrupt governmental contol when my boss brought up a lyme-disease website that had a woman's nekkid breast on it....and was arrested by our government appointed handlers. See? The government controlled the servers and monitored EVERYTHING going in and out.........and you seem to have no problem with this...just another day at the office...

No, really, it's not about the actual difficulcy of bipassing the chinese software filters.

It is as Charles has stated.

IN FREE COUNTRIES the people have an attitude of 'oh well I can get around that'. In a place like china it's unlikely they'll even know there's anything else to be gotten around to.

This 'I can bypass the filter' is the mentality of people in a free society. Things are different in China.

Yes, it is awful that the state controls the Internet in China--but don't forget it started that way here, too. The real change comes when the people at the TOP who are using it and who have the capacity to evade it start doing so to find out what's going on in the world.

If you think the Chinese know what's going on in the world NOW, WITHOUT the Internet, you are crazy. China is no longer as closed a society as it once was (it's no North Korea), but it is still mostly a self-protective society, especially with information. The Revolution taught one thing enormously well--he who controls the information controls the populace.

But you and I both know that the kind of people who use the Internet are the kind of people who can figure out how to get MORE information. It CAN be done, and it WILL be done. Corruption at the top will (you'll excuse the expression) "trickle down" gradually, opening up more and more of the outside world.

The Chinese government isn't smart enough to totally shut down information. It tried before, and it ended up with underground churches, secret ballroom dance experts, and a democracy movement. The ex-pats working in China, the missionaries there, the indigenous political activists, the dissidents--they will find a way. Because that's what FREEDOM does.

What Bill Gates does is make money and give it to Democrat causes. In the end, Bill's role may well be only to provide the technology of possibility. He's neither willing nor able to bring democracy to China. That is the role of the Chinese. Even the ex-pats and the missionaries can't provide the willingness to die for freedom. That has to come from within. For some, it's already there. For some, it has yet to come--and for some, it is a dangerous concept that they dedicate their lives to eliminating.

China will be free one day. And, no doubt, Bill Gates will find a way to get some credit for it. But that will be hubris; the heros of tomorrow are the government puppets of today who will learn to yearn for freedom when they open the door to the outside and find it impossible to shut.

Let alone the notion that if you try to bypass that....and get caught....it's not the same punishment system as in a free country....off to the REAL Gulag with ya...where you finish out your days conducting slave labor for the motherland. The mentality of "I can get around that" might work in the US where you MIGHT get a fine for "getting around that"...or have your PC confiscated....but in non-free countries, you're gonna get whacked hard and put in prisons full of disease and MAYBE you'll live through it.

...for trying to get information.

Here's a thought - what if (a big IF) Microsoft had been selling its software to the former apartheid government of South Africa. Microsoft didn't set up apartheid and (hopefully)no one working for Microsoft would support apartheid. But would most of the world consider Microsoft to be 'innocent'? Wouldn't most people consider Microsoft to be 'aiding' apartheid? What about Microsoft selling software to be used by the Fidel government in Cuba? Would that be acceptable?

Since Jacoby has tried to make this a political thing, she really should check out Rupert Murdoch and his allowing of state propaganda to be shown on his networks in China.

Charles -

Almost certainly yes. Fidel is much loved in many circles. Free healthcare, you know.

Hey, and so what if he has to brutally oppress his people, kill political dissidents, limit free speach and hold the whole island hostage. So what if the hospitals are so poor you're better off letting a rhesis monkey operate on you and then packing the wound with maggots.

Free health care! Gonna make an omlette, gotta break a few eggs.

Charles....you've set up two very nice false analogies. In order for this to be equated with the apartheid SA....Microsoft would not only have to sell the former gubmint their product...but they'd also have to alter their program in order to assist in the apartheid (how that could be possible escapes me)....same with Cuba. If Microsoft sold Cuba it's systems and altered 'em to assist Cuba in censoring information to the public....THEN it would be comparable....THEN I'd speak out against Microsoft.

I must make it clear that Microsoft can sell anything to anyone so long as it's legal.....but I can also speak out against them for assisting in teh oppression of entire Peoples.

Actually, now that I think of it, that is a very good analogy the two of you have put together.

What if MS was selling software to apartheid South Africa for use in biosecurity chips that denied internet access to people with too much eumelanin in their skin? How would you feel about MS then?