OK it’s absurdly late here so I’ll make this short.

The event was organised by the Muslim Council of Britain, but that doesn’t mean the approved of everyone who turned up. Some people turn up and hijack a demonstration sometimes – fact of life. If the BNP (our local racists) go to Euro Disney and start shouting racist comments this doesn’t mean Disney is a British racist organisation.

I’ve done a very quick look around the web and the only people I could find describing the MCB as moderate were other right wing American blog sites. It was a very quick look around so I hope someone else can find a source for this which knows this organisation a little better.

As I say it was a very quick look but I did go to the MCB website you can find it here. If you have a look at the library section and check out the entry under Tue 11 Sep 2001 you will find this statement by the MCB.

MCB expresses total condemnation of terrorist attacks

The MCB stands shoulder to shoulder with remarks made by our Prime Minister Tony Blair. Our thoughts and prayers are with all the innocent victims , their families and communities.

We convey our deepest sympathies to President Bush and the people of America. No cause can justify this carnage. We hope those responsible will swiftly be brought to justice for their unconscionable deeds.

As the British Muslims come to the full realisation of these most awful events, which they condemn wholeheartedly, they too are beginning to feel a huge sense of fear. Terror makes victims of us all, it is beyond reason. Terror on this scale must not be compounded by knee-jerk reactions that would make victims of other innocent peoples of the world. This would only add to the devastation caused.

Let us wait patiently for the "moderate muslims" to step up and condemn this despicable display. This, just as they did in condemning the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Oh wait, they never did. My mistake.

Your mistake was to not bother doing even minimal research. I found this within 10 minutes of reading this post. I don’t know if the MCB is moderate or not, but if they aren’t moderate then even the extremists were condemning 9/11 on this occasion.

Oh and a week later you’ll find this in the library

On 18th September a delegation of British Muslim community leaders met the US Ambassador William S. Farish to express their horror and sympathy for the innocent victims of last week's terrorist outrages in New York and Washington. -

British Muslim Leaders Visit US Embassy -

"No cause can justify this carnage. We hope those responsible will swiftly be brought to justice for their unconscionable deeds. As British Muslims come to the full realisation of these most awful events, which they condemn wholeheartedly, they too are beginning to feel a huge sense of fear. Terror makes victims of us all, it is beyond reason," said MCB Secretary-General, Mr Yousuf Bhailok.

"pathetic apologist" - no.

I just like my facts accurate.

Sorry my link doesn't seem to be working I'll give it another go. Click here for the Muslim Council of Britain

William....the actions that you speak of in Britain are the same as the actions of those that attend the anti-American protests here...organized by cANSWER and the IAC. The number of times I've seen white unAmerican college students saying the same thing is uncountable (minus the "osama is coming back" chant). "Kill Bush" "Victory to the Iraqi resistance" and ANYTHING anti-Israel are the norm for them.

Thanks for the info Brit....but I don't really get the British news here and the Council on American Islamic Relations (THE biggest muslim group in THIS country) did not condemn ANYTHING...at least not openly and most importantly....NOT IN THEIR PRESS RELEASES WHERE AMERICANS MIGHT'VE SEEN IT. They're too busy bashing Israel and claiming Islamophobia to trouble themselves with a condemnation. Oh wait, they DID condemn the Passover bombing....but condemned Israel in the next sentence.

Now, long AFTER 9-11....CAIR started the campaign called "Not in the Name of Islam". However, it doesn't seem that it EVER made the news.

Thus far, it seems that on one hand CAIR will silently condemn generic terrorist acts against civilians (just not anything even remotely near 9-11....and not 9-11 itself)....but on the other hand, they support Hamas and Hezbollah in slaughtering civilian jews in Israel (just not during Passover).

....but this doesn't mean that I don't whole-heartedly believe that muslims in the U.S. either knowingly or not financially support terrorism and silently sit back and watch it happen all over the world. Knowingly or not the money they give charities (as proscribed by the Qu'ran)....some of that ends up funding terrorism in the world.

....and in my googles this fine morning, I just saw a headline in a Salt Lake paper that said "Quran abuse is 'spiritual torture'"........theY're kidding, right? Um.....nope, they're not.

Actually this protest was not organised by the MCB as you have incorrectly stated, the protest was oragnsied by a legitamate Muslim group but was hijacked by a miniscule vocal group who have clashed with the majority Muslim community in the UK especially over the recent elections, so there is an important distinction. I also disagree with your reference to 'moderate muslims' im afraid in Islam there is no such thing either you are a Muslim or your not you cant pick and choose we believe the Holy Quran is the literal word of God, and if you are a Muslim you must accept it all, but Islam also warns us against extremism. In the UK Muslims account for 3% of the population yet more Muslims attend Friday prayesr than do Christians on Sunday, you have changed your bible beyond recognition unlike the Holy Quran which is in its original state, we do not compromise the word of God unlike you who chop and change to suit mans desires and lusts. In Islam it is forbidden to harm the holy scriptures of other religions simply because we believe some aspects to be true e.g. the story of the lives of the prophets Moses, Josep, Abraham, etc, etc. We respect your books but you do not respect ours which we will not tolerate. Muslims do not hate Americans but we are against your doube standards in international affairs e.g. supporting tyrants in the Middle East and illegal occupations in Israel, your governments hatred for Islam and Muslims is unfortunate. However you must be aware that you cannot do anything about it we fear no one we fear nothing except God. If you can understand that one man with nothing except faith who lives in a cave can bring you (so called super power) to your knees then you will understand the power of the word of God which is the Holy Quran, which millions of Muslims all over the world memorise by heart who are known as Hafez al-Quran. It is the most read holy scripture in the world it is read everyday five times a day in every corner of the world. Respect our scriptures like we respect yours, we want justice and equality in the world and we want to live in peace, but you want Empires and Crusades.

As for your NYPD "New Yorks so called finest" where where they on 9/11?

UKMuslim...

what illegal occupation in Israel? No matter how you slice it, the Jews hold the rights to the land.. historically, politically and militarily. you're suggesting it's illegal because you hate the jews as the koran perscribes you to.

I love it....is THAT the shit you're fed when you're at the mosque? "[our] government's hatred for Islam and muslims"....you're kidding, right? Tell your imam to stop preaching hatred and lies in the name of the religion of NON-peace.

"Illegal occupations".....please show me the law being broken. Why do you fear God (Allah)? I've read your Qu'ran numerous times and it's written everywhere that Allah is kind to the good and faithful muslim that live their lives by the sunnah....so why be afraid...unless you're not following the priciples set up by the Qu'ran?

If you think that ONE MAN living in a cave has brought us to our knees......well, once again....you need to listen to someone other than your imam. We are still standing, we are still the top-dog, and we will still stand no matter what your beloved pathetic terrorists do to us.

As for the NYPD....they were running up into the burning buildings on 9-11....with total disregard for their own lives. Are you insinuating that they should've done more to stop planes in the air from hitting buildings? Do you understand that the NYPD doesn't have any authority over the skies....or are you just spouting ignorant hatred? Just by saying something like that, you're showing your support for the actions of 9-11....ass.

Now that your rant is over, are you just going back to supporting your beloved jihadis that slaughter civilians as their only tactic in warfare? Buncha friggin' cowards, I say.

Every action and re-action to the Muslim world since 9/11 can be summed in 2 words GWB knows very well... Disarm Islam. All else is meaningless political and idiology crap. Not one Palestian would die of anything, but natural causes or accidents, if they didn't have any bombs, guns and bullets. Certainly none of them would die at the hands of any Israelis who for 1500 years would rather ignor they even exist.

Face it Mussies your all just one step backwards from all being African Cannibals. Now moonwalk, like that other feak of nature Michael Jackson, back to your caves and goat herds.

I admit im not a perfect Muslims that’s why I fear God, but I try to be a good Muslim and like you rightly say God is kind, and God willing I will be forgiven. Muslims have never hated Jews, Zionists are a different matter, Jews are good people who we respect, we believe in the same great prophets like Solomon, Moses, Abraham (peace be upon them all) Hatred of mankind is a Western European disease. Muslims have nothing to feel guilty about after all we didn’t butcher 6 million poor innocent Jewish civilians or bomb hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese.... McNamara sums up the campaign as "Killing 50% to 90% of the people of 67 Japanese cities and then bombing them with two nuclear bombs..." Neither did we massacre tens of millions of innocent people in Russia. Or massacre hundreds of thousands of poor Vietnamese farmers. Don’t even mention the Native American Indians and Aboriginal peoples etc yawn etc yawn etc and on and on European Christians have always killed Jews since the Middle Ages when you went on your crusades the first thing you did was kill Jews, the graves of pogroms against innocent Jews bear testimony. The Muslim world often gave sanctuary to the Jews e.g. Turkey the Middle East we lived happily together, even today we campaign in the UK with Jewish groups even though Zionists try to poison this relationship. Europeans have, will & continue too in the future kill innocent Jews because that’s what you have always done after all you believe that they killed your God. As for running into a burning building they should be labelled New York’s Stupidest. On 9/11 you’ve got no idea the joy felt trust me when I say that we really celebrated! By the way it wasn’t just in the UK but from Brazil to Australia people celebrated just read the news reports. Once again we don’t hate Americans but your war on Islam and Muslims perpetrated by the Zionist cabal who have taken over your great country has to stop. We support democracy in the Middle East but if your government did they would kill all the leaders instead of sending porn obsessed, rapists & homosexuals to kill thousands of innocent civilians, there you go again! Your country is just about standing it wont be for long with that fool in the white house who can barely string a coherent sentence together and can just about read 'my pet goat' in fact he liked it so much he couldn’t put it down dumb Yank and even dumber Yanks for voting for the fool! What were your F16 pilots reading on 9/11 ‘how to be a dumb Yank and die for Israel’ or was it ‘how to let Israeli spies steal our technology’? Jihad takes many forms Jihad never ends. The force is with us (ask Osama) like the Jedis fighting the tyranny of the Evil Empire.(Great movie by the way)

Hmmm, let me see if I get this right- there are no moderate Muslims, as you either are or you are not- but you can't be an extremist Muslim...just a touch confusing. Perhaps you can help me with something, I've read some of the Koran, and looked through most of it, and I just can't seem to find anything that requires Muslims to tell the truth when speaking to non-Muslims. I've found passages that advocate deception - even while trying to convert them, but not truth. Perhaps you can direct me to the proper Sunnah? Oh, and as for NY's Finest, they were saving lives, as any decent human being would do.

Hmmm, I think we know that people have killed people throughout history, oh, of course except the Muslims, right? Or did you simply neglect to tell of your own history for fear it would reveal something you'd prefer not to? The only reason Muslims never committed atrocities on the scale of the rest of the world, is that you never had the time- too busy killing each other in endless wars between factions of Islam (or if you prefer, and I'm sure you do, between Muslims and blasphemous desecrators of Islam).

I am of Indian background and born in the west, maybe I can provide a relatively impartial opinion.

The West does not deny its history since knowledge of the holocaust, Slavery, and others is well known. There is the positive side of the west (1) science and technology (2) democracy and rights for women, and (3) modern economy. The positive will in time clear up the negative historic inheritence.

The Islamic world is in deep denial. Holocausts in the Islamic world include (1) 1-3 million massacre by Pakistani troops of civillians during the 1971 Bangladesh war (2) The present holocaust in Darfur sudan of christians and black africans (3) The Turkish holocaust of Armenians and other christians (roughly 2 million people) at the start of the 20th century.

Other shames: (1) extensive slavery of black africans which are on the same scale as that committed by Europeans except the slave never survived (2) periodic shia-sunni pogroms through out the islamic world, look at the recent history of Afganistan, Pakistan, Iran, and many others (3) religious minorities (Jews, Hindus, Christians) are third class citizens in all islamic contries (4) Pogroms against the Jews of Bagdad during 1947, hence all remain jews migrated to Israel. (5) Sexual abuse of philipino maids and maid from other nations in saudi arabia and other oil rich states (6) "honour killing" of close relatives is part of islamic culture.

I conclude the Islamic world is in deep denial and is in a state of suffering.

"ive found passages that advocate deception" Please provide the proof, thanks

As for factional wars are you talking about the hundreds of European Wars and before that the Christian factional wars or the Wars against Christian Settlers who in turn waged war against Native Indians?

‘Indian Background’ forgot to mention that in many places of India the hindus are killing female babies on such a scale that their is a huge imbalance in the sexes (i suppose thats why they have to become homosexual and have a rude annoying habit of straing with a gormless expression), by the way they have been doing this for the last what errm how many hundred years? These beautiful children are innocent babies that do not deserve such cruelty, they are a gift form God Almighty, this is outrageous genocide which all people must condemn. The practice of sati which is a hindu tradition of wife burning is still practiced today where the widow is thrown alive onto the burning funeral pyre of her husband, why? I really don’t know why they have to kill the poor woman just because her husbands died? people die get over it? Many people of the good book the true Christians and the Jews are good decent people whom we have a lot in common with but non of us have anything in common with the cow urine drinkers & idol worshippers whom Moses, Abraham and the other Great Prophets (peace be upon them all) (Moses & Solomon who’s stories I love to hear) condemn in the strongest terms.

Slavery today is now dead except in India the hindu caste system is ancient slavery still being practiced today thousands of these poor lower caste hindus loose their lives to the wicked upper class urine drinking Idolatrous Brahmins. I wont even mention what they have done to good peace loving Christians who are not Evangelists or even missionaries just charity workers and we all know what they did to the Muslims in Gujarat if they treat their own in such a wicked manner what chance have others got?

Hey, UK Moslem;

In the first Caliphate didn't you guys offer the Iranians the book or the the sword?

Get real, religon of peace my ass.

Bill

The rant of UKmuslim is predictable and his open hatred of India is clear. The sati thing is an urban legend, there have been a few incidents in the medievil period. Quite frankly, UKmulsim has poor grasp of the fasts and reality in general. he beleivesin everything the Iraqi information minister said during the US/UK liberation or Iraq !!

India has got many problems, but since its a democracy its all out in the open. However, these problems will be solved: India has a growing economy, and advances in science, technology, agriculture will ensure a good life for all Indian citizens of all faiths. All in all India is "getting a life" and so is China, its not using the colonial era as excuse (unlike many in the Islamic world). The brahmins invented the decimal system, but this is not about India.

The forces of islamic terrorism will be defeated by world wide secular and democratic forces. UKmuslim is clearly a Bin Laden supporter, he should go back to his islamic paradise along the Afgan-Pak border, I don't think he is welcome in the UK by the british people.

There is one person who is a moderate muslim: President Pervez Mussasaraf. He was a supporter of terrorism untill terrorists he backed tried to kill him. Watch him closely, he is an important figure, he will guide Pakistan to properity, democracy, peace with neighbours, and respectability in the eyes of the world community.

Many muslims from Pakistan that I have met are moderate, paradoxically UK Pakis are very radical.

I agree President Bushes solution: smoke em out from their caves and get them one by one. The problem is how do you smoke out a muslim born in the west (perhaps UKmuslim?) who is dedicated to Osama Bin Laden ?

Disarm fanatical Islam, and I find it very reasurring that the worlds most powerful military is out to diarm the fanatics. We should also reach out to moderate muslims, they will never love you (this is to the US), but if you are fair to them they will repect you. I know of a Pakistani aquantance who is happy with the changes in Pakistan after President Bushes intervention. Such people will not support you openly but they could be the silent majority, lets hope so.

I find that the only thing less trustworthy than a Moslem is a Babu. The Indians have spent the last fifty years stabbing us in the back, Gandi, Nerhu, Gandi.

You people get your own act together, then we will talk.

Bill

I am checking on that passage- although that one may have been in the Sunnah (Earlier I meant sura). You still have not pointed me to the requested sura, so I await your answer. Of course, I don't expect one: First, you know I'm correct, and second, you only seem to desire to point out where you believe others are wrong or evil, and have no reply whatever when someone points out problems in your own backyard- except of course to point out more bad things in theirs... Also, I must ask, if the west is SO depraved, why do you choose to live surrounded by it's filth and evil? You could live in a clean and holy place like Saudi Arabia, couldn't you?

Hi UKMuslim,

Firstly I don't agree with much of what you say and by that I mean the content. You seem to have strong views in a number of areas. You are quite happy to dismiss Hindus as urine drinking baby killers, Christians as not really believing in Christianity, westerners as inherently violent and war like and the US army as porn obesses rapists and homosexuals. Then you tell us we should respect your scriptures. Curiously enough reading your thoughts I find little to respect I'm afraid. You tie your views to the Koran which means if I only listen to you I have little to respect the Koran for.

But I don't only listen to you. You habitually use we instead of I. You seem to want to speak for a group rather than yourself. People do this to add authority to what they are saying and it's merely a rhetorical device. You have authority to speak for yourself, not all UK Muslims and not all Muslims. There are many different opinions to be found within the British Muslim population (I live in Bethnal Green so I got to here quite a few during the last election) and by using "we" you seem to want to claim that you speak for them all. I don't know if this is a rhetorical device on your part or you feel there is some truth to it. Your claim that people either are or are not Muslim and as such there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim seems to imply that any one Muslim can speak for all as they all share the same world view - if this is your view then I disagree with it.

Hi reality check,

If you're from an Indian background I'd hardly say this makes you impartial. You may be impartial personally, but your background isn't a reason to suppose impartiality. My closest friend is 2nd generation British Indian and his father was forced to leave his home during partition. His father is very definitely not impartial and has no love for Pakistan or Muslims. My friend on the other hand has no problem with Muslims (the first child minder he had for his son was Muslim), but this isn't because of his background it's because he is who he is.

You should also be aware that the term Paki or Pakis is pretty offensive in the UK and is generally used by racists to denote all people from the Indian sub-continent. There are moves to reclaim the word by Pakistanis, but I'd be careful when using it over the Internet to British people unless you are very clear that you are referring to the nationality of Pakistan - even then personally I'd avoid it.

Hi UK Muslim again,

You say that hatred of mankind is a Western European disease. Well as a Western European who has stood up for Muslims time and again on this website I'd like to point out that from your account some Muslims (you for example) seem to have a problem with Jews, Christians and Hindu's. No one's mentioned Buddhists yet but before the Taliban were kicked out of Afghanistan they destroyed the largest statues of the Buddha in the world so I think we can assume that some Muslims might have a bit of a problem with Buddhists too. One of the things I have disagreed with people on this site is that people say that hatred of mankind is a Muslim disease. Do you see why people might take this interpretation from your comments so far.

And following on from your references to the election what effect do you think comments like yours had on the BNP vote - because I was horrified at the increase they had in the polls this time. This wasn't because those voting were Western Europeans since the majority of voters in the UK have always been Western European and have only voted BNP in small handfuls - something changed.

I do not hate India at all I can assure you I understand India very well. "Indian Background" assumes I am Pakistani but he forgets there are over 100 million Muslims in India, Muslims made India, every major historical site in India is Islamic. You are right Musharraf is intelligent he is a survivor, but if you think for one minute this instigator of Kargil is fond of the Brahmins then im a afraid you don’t know the Pakistanis at all they wouldn’t even urinate on you if you were on fire they may let you drink it though. He openly taunted Vajpayee of the so-called mighty India to take him on or go home and wear bangles like women (it’s a south Asian slur) and guess what the Brahmins backed down from this small but tough nation. Believe me the true Christians and the Jews have nothing in common with these idol worshipers this heathen act is condemned in all the good books & Holy Scriptures. It is the Sikhs of India who are not idolatrous or urine drinkers who are truly brave and even they aren’t too fond of the Brahmins, today Sikh terrorists detonated bombs in Indian cinemas and in New Delhi to fight against Brahmin oppression there are many Hindu Indian terrorist groups fighting for separate homelands and freedom form the slavery of the Brahmins. Unlike the Zionists Crusaders who openly wage war the Brahmins due to their inherent weakness use sly tactics behind there false smile and nodding heads & try to stir trouble for Muslims but they do realise that they are just considered fakirs by the West anyway, isn’t that right Babu?

Ask the Hindu women in the UK why they find their own men so disgusting I have personally been told by Hindu girls at university that they cant stand them is it because they have bad breath due to all that urine drinking? I hope you just stop at urine and don’t ingest other bodily waste products, but I really wouldn’t be surprised, Id sell you my urine to drink but Id never sell you my crap to eat no matter how much money you paid me. The word Thug is an Indian word, which originates from a sect that committed violent torture & human sacrifice to the Goddess of death ‘Kali Ma’ this is why the Great Prophets were against such people and that is why Abraham (peace be upon him) destroyed idols with his own hands. Im sorry but every one will find it difficult you take you people seriously due to such practices you worship cows and call them your Mother!!! We like to eat burgers and BBQ T-bone steaks you worship T-bone steak and BBQ your women if they ever get to adult hood.

I live in the West due to the same reason that Western governments are raping and pillaging and propping up dictators and preventing the spread of democracy and freedom, Economics. The only difference is, is that we pay our taxes employ people in businesses contribute to society to improve our communities. I’ll do you a deal if you give the land back to the native Indian tribes I will think about going back to the land of my grand parents who were invited to come to the UK. There are many good people in the West who fight injustice with us just look at the people of Britain millions of us marched together for justice as someone who went to a Catholic school I have great respect for people of the book not everyone in the West is evil, by the way many of the Brits on these various marches like to buy and wear OBL & Mullah T-Shirts he’s more popular then the fool in the White House.

You should listen to your new MP for Bethnal Green he shares similar views so do the thousands of Muslims who voted for him and ousted the pro-Zionist Oona King just listen to their speeches and interviews. There is only one Islam the basics are all the same and the fundamentals cannot be cherry picked therefore there is no such thing as moderates. I am not just dismissing Hindus; I am talking about actual facts which “Indian background” can deny until the cows come home (sorry no pun intended)

Female Baby Killers http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4173597.stm

Urine Drinkers http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1383293.html

Sati Urban Legend? Medieval Period BULL!!! http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?part=news&Story_ID=05205 http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/004200505131651.htm

War Like World War I & II, Use of Atomic Bombs, Imperialism well you know all the rest!

US Army rapists http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1335105,00.html http://alternet.org/story/18481/

If you don’t respect my thoughts fine but you should know the facts! I suggest you go and speak to the people of Bethnal Green again. We as in the global community, of the Ummah.

Lies forbidden in Islam http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=86538

As for lying the Western leaders have lied so much in the past few years they have begun to believe their own lies that is sad. (please read the links)

The MCB did not organise the event, it was mistakenly named as an organiser by the Evening Standard who are to issue a retraction.

Hi UK Muslim,

You haven't actually addressed one point I made. I do know the election in Bethnal Green very well - I was one of the voters. George Galloway had death threats from some Muslims because of his views, yet many others voted for him. He attracted plenty of votes from non Muslims also as he is seen anti Iraqi war and as "old" labour and many people were happy to vote for him as a protest against Blair.

You post links showing some examples - these are cases of individuals rather than group practices. If I were to follow your example and condemn a whole group on the behaviour of a few individuals then Muslims would have many many accusations to answer. Doing this is trivial and rather a waste of your time and mine.

You have not read my posts, i never said i hate jews or anyone else i clearly stated Muslims dont but zinoists are a different matter please do not assume things and accuse me of hatred.

The NF was massive during the 70's it seems to be popular during Labour governments for some reason, then it was west indians today its Muslims, they will use any excue at anytime to further their cause, its got nothing to do with what i post. In Germany the Nazis were elected by a cultured educated population, people will find any excuse to carry out their policies if they cant find one they will invent one.

Consider historical facts, as i have pointed out earlier the Hitler, Stalin, The Great Wars, Nuclear bombs, Imperialsm etc etc even on a purley numbers game of human deaths consider who has, is & will be doing all the bombing, killing invading and who is doing all the dying? Do you see why people might think that hatred of mankind is a Western European disaese?

My intention was not to condemn a whole group on the behaviour of a few I was responding to an earlier post, which was trying to deceive and lie. However it is debatable whether or not some of these practices are individual or organised and collectively planed and adhered too.

Oh and as for Brits flocking to buy OBL t-shirts well I can believe one or two may but more than 99.9999% of those Brits on those marches were/are in no way in favour of OBL.

If UKMuslim spoke for all muslims, we have more of a problem then anyone is willing to admit.

Whats the problem that I am stating facts and highlighting injustice and the the Crusader War against Islam? Or that I am not keeping quiet and taking it like a good little boy? I dont speak for all Muslims but I dont have to they all know there is a Crusade.

If all muslims thought like you, a crusade would indeed be neccessary.

Good for the MCB media officer. I did consider contacting them to find out their view on this and what actually happened. In the newspaper reports I read there were 12 policemen present at the demonstration which did make me suspect it wasn't organised by a larger group like the MCB.

On the BNP and NF actually after I posted this I regretted it. Of course your comments aren't the reason for the up swing in the BNP vote it's much more complicated and I was wrong to muddy the waters by bringing this up. My apologies.

On offering your opinions - no I was delighted to see you post here initially - I and others have spent sometime defending Muslims. When you pointed out that the protest was hijacked by a minuscule vocal group I'd made a similar point. But just because you're posting doesn't mean people will agree - making comments about the NYPD while I appreciate it was in reference to an earlier comment didn't exactly impress me with your views however. You maybe aware of 2 firemen losing their lives in a fire in Bethnal Green about 6 months to a year ago. It was in Bethnal Green Road and I walked pasted the scene the day after - if memory serves it was Muslim's who those firemen were trying to save. Still stupid for running into a burning building?

I'm pleased to see you back off from the "we" rather than "I" terminology and I did appreciate you differentiating between Jews and Zionists. But if you look back your comments on other religions and on Western Europeans they come across as very one-sided and not at all rounded. Abominable acts have been committed throughout history and I find you attempt to portray them as nothing to do with Muslims as ridiculous as people on this site using the term "blood cult" to describe Islam. You'll also noted I picked up on reality check as well. I don't speak out only against Muslims and terms like pathetic apologist used in the original post were I suspected directed at me and others who do defend Islam. A crusade - no I don't think so, but yes some people in the US and European countries are overly aggressive towards Muslims, but then I'd say the same about the reverse.

Don't pretend that your religion of "peace" allows you to be the friends of Jews and Christians. If you follow the word of the Book....you CANNOT be.

5:051...O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

I take you point about "Paki" but it also used by cricket commentator from Australia and New Zealand. UKmuslim is full of venom and is obviously a OBL supporter living the West. Please cotinue with your rant so the british people can know who is in their midst.

I don't care about Mussasarafs emotional state. Moreover, I care nothing for what ever bigotry the Pakistani establishment might want to spread about India to its population. Quite frankly, it is not the mark of a strong and confident society, but of a weak and unsure society.

The west should take measures to limit the growth of the muslim population otherwise there could be two consequences (1) massive social problems from a group of hostile and alienated muslim youth, look at their unempolyment rate in the UK (2) the rise of facism.

Demographically the West might need more workers, get your workers from Thailand, South America, Vietnam, Sri Lanka, and other safe countries. "Play safe" untill you know what you are dealing with.

Muslims are not a homogenous group, there is a range of opinion, people like Taslima Nasreen http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/sawweb/sawnet/news/nasrin.html and Ayaan Hirshi Ali http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/ned030110.html have (in my opinion) the most accurate and intelligent views on Islam.

You also get ordinary "muslim" people who listen to conscience and are nice people, I have known a few.

Then you get the types such as UKMuslim who vent their venom on the internet and have suicide bombing fantasies as well as fantasies of violating non-mulsim women.

His I have no problem with Jews and Christians (they are peole of the book) is a just a classical "religon of peace" Koran tactic.

The problem I have with depicting all muslims as OLB supporter is that it is not true. Moreover, it encourages hate crimes against muslims and adds fuel to the fundamentalist fire.

I don't agree with the peaceniks, if you are soft with terrorists then you advertise your weakness and will be subject to more attacks. Thats why I support Bushes war on terrorism, and I think other nations should do as much as possible to extend their material and moral support. However, I saw CBS 60 minutes yesterday, and according to a US army interpretor only 12 out 600 were true terrorists, the remaining were relatively innocent but were being treated as hard core terrorists. This has got to stop as it does nothing for the war on terror, and acts a focus for muslim anger and terrorist recruitment.

Ezekiel:

4:12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

4:15 Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

Ezekiel

16:17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them

Ezekiel was the man.

Nice....and childishly off-topic, as usual.

So totally ignoring the whole entire concept of context, there is still the little fact that not every practitioner of religion follows every little thing in their holy books.

I have no venom, why should I? I am at peace with myself I just speak the truth! It is interesting how the Chamcha Mr India hasn’t addressed any of the points I have raised. But how could he defend the indefensible? Your lies have been exposed with proof! No matter how much you suck up you are still a heathen in the eyes of the monotheists as I said earlier due to their inherent weakness they use sly tactics (see how he doesn’t care about Musharaf anymore) to stir trouble, thinking they are the best friends of America but their delusions of grandeur were soon knocked on the head when the Yanks told them to get lost with the Modi visa incident they were livid but then they had to shut up because they realised they look stupid as they were bluntly ignored. Remember when China invaded your Northern border? Just to show you they could if they wanted too? They ran away! Please come to the UK and see how your Hindu girls are chasing the Muslim boys they cant get enough, even in Bollywood! Many have converted to Islam and Christianity. The Hindu youth are ashamed to admit their faith after being educated here they have realised how ridiculous it is to call a cow their mother and worship it by drinking its urine. India is the most selfish, uncharitable, discriminatory unhygienic place you could ever visit hence the term Delhi Belly! If the cows are not defecating on the streets it is the people doing it openly, they have not heard of urinals yes its sad but true. No other poverty striking country in the world is so unhygienic. The true Christians and the Jews are people of the book we share the same great prophets hence it is a religious obligation to show respect. Of course I admire OBL many non-Muslims the world over admire him simply for the fact that someone with nothing but the power of just faith can stand up to a nation with the financial wealth and its gigantic military might of which the world has not seen ever, any thinking man would do the same, who in the world has the guts to do such a thing? Certainly not and Indian!

As for running into a burning building they should be labelled New York’s Stupidest. On 9/11 you’ve got no idea the joy felt trust me when I say that we really celebrated!

As someone who lost people I cared for on 9/11 (NY's "Stupidest" included) you better pray to your backward moon god I never get hold of your filthy, lice ridden, slimy, rag donned head. It's safe to say at the minimum you will be shitting your rotten teeth for a month. Then when your mother eats it she will cut up her mouth exposing her to even new strains of AIDS, syphillis and mad cow.

Yes we don't like you. Nor would any sensible right thinking individual or nation. Why should we? Have you ever contributed anything worthwhile? Anything within the last 1,400 or so years since your backward death cult has blighted the earth? You are nothing more than a menace to the planet and we will eradicate you like the vermin you are.

The only good thing about you abysmal, rag wearing bastards is that you are biodegradable. Fortunately, our great president "W" will make sure you reach that state real soon.

Hi Sarge,

Attempting to get back on topic. If CAIR didn't condemn 9/11 check out the MCB website. The vast majority of Muslims are good peace loving people. From what I've seen the MCB isn't a bad representation of them. The library and press releases demonstrate this. Yes there is stuff about Israel and you can see as time goes by there are growing concerns about Islamaphobia. I'm sad that CAIR didn't speak out against 9/11 and other events, but other groups did.

I don't remember the Vatican speaking out against the IRA (they may have done but I don't remember it), but I'm afraid that Irish Americans did help fund them. While the Irish government condemned the acts of the IRA most Irish American organisations I believe did not. They were misguided and there may be sympathisers in the US helping to fund Muslims involved in terrorism knowingly or not, who are misguided. The original post linking what now appears to be a legitimate group to a very small demonstration really doesn't help the situation. It feeds peoples distrust. I suspect those Irish Americans in their Boston bars have wised up and I suspect the same will be true of naive Muslims in the US in years to come.

wandering_brit: you are an optimist, maybe islamo-fascism will die out, don't count on it its been around since 800 AD.

UK_muslim: This discussion is not about India or Indian religions the title is "moderate muslims: a figment of your imagination"

Let be honest about this this "religion of peace thetoric" is politically motivated, out leaders do not want to incite pogroms against muslims in general, a very laudable aim. However, in this blog we are free to discuss the facts.

If we want to evaluate a religon perhaps the best place to start is the religions central character. This would be Jesus for Christianity, Mohamud for Islam, Buddha for Buddism, you get the idea.

I have read that Mohammed married a 6 year old girl and then consummated the marriage some years later. First I though this was propaganda, but muslim sources have confirmed this. I still can't beleive this believe this !! but it seems to be true. You ask yourself, can such person have any kind of spiritual insight or authority ? I have made up my mind.

Disclaimer: I am no way trying to insight hate crimes against muslims. Many are nice people as they listen to their conscience, all humans have the spark of goodness, and it this spark which makes then decent people.

The fascist muslims, leave them to the security forces. All well meaning nations should contribute and fight the new fascism: radical islam.

No one sane admires OBL, he is a coward wihtout any morality, he is happy to kill men, women, and children.

Wandering brit:

The IRA was not a christian fundamentalist group, it did not give a religious justification for its campaign. The IRA claimed to represent in some way the Irish minority in Northern Ireland.

You cannot compare the IRA and Al Queda, the latter want to commit mass murder is an enemy of civillisation, the former is an armed pressure group which does not want to commit mass-murder.

Hi reality check,

Yes I realise that people from other countries use the term "Paki" (in fact there is film of Bush using it), but in the UK it's a very loaded word and avoided unless someone is happy to be seen as racist.

You say

You also get ordinary "muslim" people who listen to conscience and are nice people, I have known a few.

And then again

The problem I have with depicting all muslims as OLB supporter is that it is not true. Moreover, it encourages hate crimes against muslims and adds fuel to the fundamentalist fire.

I agree I know too many good people who are Muslims to dismiss the whole religion. I know Hindu's and Muslims have had some animosity for centuries. UKMuslim refers to this and it occurred before the British involvement in India and of course flared up after the British left. There's not much good to say about the British in India (at least from an Indian point of view), but perhaps the relative uneasy truce between the Hindu's and Muslims during the British involvement was something to be looked on as positive.

On Islomofascism I must say I don't like or really recognise this term. Fascism is just a strong negative word that has been put next to Islam. It has no real content. Of course Muslims have developed over the past thousand years plus.

On being an optimist I'm not sure that’s true. I don't just hope OBL will go away, but the main thrust of the initial thread is that all Muslims are the same and I don't agree with that at all. Unfortunately one of the problems of posting on a site like this is that I spent too much time disagreeing with sentiments like all Muslims are bad so I don't really get to say in too much detail where I disagree with those that actually are bad and what we should do about them.

Hi UKMuslim,

Where to start. OK first I'll point out that your last post is yet again filled with hatred (I don't feel the word venom is correct as it doesn't imply the impotence which I feel backs up your hatred).

Yes relations between India and the US have been more strained over recent years and this is primarily due to the fact that the US has worked more closely with Pakistan when they were at war with Afghanistan and the Taliban. I haven't forgotten however and I doubt the US have that the only country to recognise the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan was Pakistan. No wonder they back tracked like crazy after 9/11.

India in my experience doesn't have to suck up. I'll tell you why it's called Delhi Belly - it's because westerners (in particular the British) go there and become ill due to not being used to the fun new bacteria they are exposed to. Westerns simply don't go to Pakistan or Bangladesh. People don't want to go there. The same bugs are there, but there isn't the affection between these countries and the UK that means large numbers go and get "Karachi Cramps" or whatever. Personally I've had Delhi Belly in Thailand and a number of other places - partly because of the sanitation but mainly because I'm just not used to the conditions.

Hindu's girls chasing Muslim boys. I want to be careful about what I say here, but do you not realise the reputation that many Muslim countries have with regards to women. All I can say is that I have never met anyone in the UK who has chased specifically Muslims (or even a specific Muslim). I do know a number of women who have gone out with Brits with an Indian background.

On OBL, a man who was brought up with fantastic wealth and all the privileges that brings and then sends others to their death. I could just about live with acknowledging a misguided bravery on the part of those on the planes, but even then I would include words like peer pressure, group psychosis and bloody idiots. You talk about a man who is backed by fantastic wealth, spends his time hiding and running while others die for his beliefs and thinks he is going to paradise when he does die. Who in the world has the guts to do such things I suspect you could find many people I'm afraid you can probably find half a dozen in most psychiatric hospitals.

Lastly on reality check not answering your "points" - you don't respond to other peoples points and just rave on about drinking urine most of the time. Rational discussion is something you have little knowledge of and even less time for. I'm impressed with his tolerance, but then I'm always impressed with an adult who faces a screaming child throwing a tantrum and after a number of hours doesn't slap it round the back of the head and says "shut up or next time I'll really get angry". Generally you have to possess a parents love to put up with the level of crap you've thrown at him and I doubt you're related.

Brit, the irish americans who openly support the IRA are very much mislead and uneducated, and they do quickly wise up for the most part as soon as they find out what it's really about.

That excuse isn't available to people like UK Muslim. He may be misled, but I'd call that a misnomer since he seems to be leading himself. Again, this isn't a case of ignorance like it is with the IRA largely, it's a case of detatchment from reality. He's of the type I talked about before, where it really doesn't matter what we do at all, he will hate just to hate.

As far as 'the people of the book', does it really even matter if he means it or not? Regardless of how he feels toward christians and jews, it's obvious he would take a sword to all the buddists, hindus, wiccans and atheists out there.

The type of 'beleif' he holds is wholley incompatible with a free and open society. The two do not work together. 'tolerance' of such beleifs isn't a viable long term option.

The next time people lambast Patrick over his articles, THIS is why I do not vocally condemn them. That's who I feel he's talking about, and he asks some very valid questions.

The big kicker is: is UK Muslim the minority, the majority, the plurality, or what? I think that's yet to be seen.

Really UY....using the typical "I have no clue what I'm talking about" excuse of "context" now? Since you didn't supply the context, I'm guessing that you don't know what the fuck your talking about. DO educate me as to what the context was that I was missed....or ignore it as usual and move on to the next ad hominem. I'll listen to the current resident muslim on the subject long before I listen to an uneducated child.

Brit, I saw the comdemnations posted by the British muslim group. Good for them, but it's not something that Americans are ever gonna see. Over hear, we only see in the TV and print media what CAIR says...and they said nothing on 9-11. After that, their "condemnations" of lesser attacks in other countries have been all cheese, nothing more. "We condemn the attacks on blah, blah, blah...but we also condemn the actions of the U.S./Israel blah, blah. Shaking a fist in one direction, while smacking the U.S. or Israel with the other hand is lip-service. They're too busy slamming Israel for their actions or for alleged violations of "rights" in this country to be bothered with comdemning the usurpation of their religion by psychopaths that strictly follow the Qu'ran when it says

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Hi reality check,

The IRA and the "Loyalists" paramilitaries did commit acts of mass murder. This included acts against civilians and they targeted places where they knew children would be. I won't bother with lots of details look up the Omagh bombing as a start but there are plenty more examples. You can get an overview of it here.

Hi MJ,

No I'm not comparing the motivation of the IRA with AQ. I'm comparing the naivety of the two groups. Delusion, romanticism and ignorance play a big part of their motivation. Neither group in the west have must of an excuse and should wise up.

As for Patrick his posts condemn all Muslims this is my problem with them. He didn't bother to check what the MCB thought because he already knew that they didn't condemn 9/11. Well he was WRONG. The MCB from what I saw on their website are formed from 400 different Muslim organisations and charities in the UK. Time and again I've seen Muslims from organisations condemn terrorism on British television yet some of the media focus on people like Abu Hamza (if you don't know him he is a nasty piece of work). I disagree with Patrick because he tars everyone with the same brush. If your media isn't showing you decent Muslims then they are at fault and if Patrick wants to post about Islam he should check his facts and present a full view and not follow the lead of your crap media. That's why I lambaste his views and vocally condemn them.

On the people of the book - well I'm not one and yes I do find it a bit odd that I end up being the one defending Muslims. Having said that I get on with Muslims just fine on a day to day basis.

Hi Sarge,

Yep I'm not surprised you've read around the MCB site, as ever you're very diligent. I hope you'll spread the word. OK so some groups want to push Israel when they condemn 9/11 and I don't like them connecting the two either. 9/11 was wrong because it was wrong, no ifs no buts. But don't dismiss them totally out of hand it's a half full half empty situation - personally I'd urge them to go for the full glass, but I like a drink even when someone gives me a half measure.

Finally back to MJ you're right the big question is to what are the numbers who think x and how many think y. Well I want to fight to get people thinking x with words because I don't want to fight everyone who thinks y with guns.

Oh I hate these links

Omagh is here

The 'people of the book' must turn to the roots of their true scriptures and defend the honour of Holy Virgin Mary, Jesus, Moses, Solomon etc, (peace be upon them all) without compromise like the Muslims do. The anti-religon anti-God forces of Zionism will stop at nothing to shed blood around the world, they will kill you like they did in the USS Liberty, they will sell you out, like your technology they sell to China. I feel sorry for true patriots like Pat Tillman if only they new the truth & spotted the deciet & lies, if only he new they are laughing at him! while they spill blood for the Zionist project, just carefully read the names of the people submitting all the articles on so many websites, wake up before its too late!

(a must read) http://www.themoderntribune.com/through_the_eyes_of_a_muslim_by_mark_glenn.htm

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

I know the situation in Northern Ireland got very grim, Omagh being an example. Concerning the IRA and "loyaslist" probably one defines mass murder in the hundreds. Al Queda on the other hand define mass murder in the thousands and millions; Al Queda is reallly a doomsday cult, I don't want to scare people I think they have no respect for life.

Hi UKmuslim, I want to be a prophet, have I got a chance ?

You wanna see pure hatred.....just read what UK Muslim just posted.

Clearly the UK has a radical islam problem. A reliable Pakistani source informs me that radical islamic parties get roughly 30% backing in Pakistam. I estimate on this basis that 30-40% of Pakistani poplation in the UK are radical, thats about 300,000 people.

Sources from the middle east are actively trying to radicalise the muslim population on British campusses. I have once posed as a muslim and have witnessed Algerian and gulf state fanatic muslims "working" on british muslims.

Unfortunately, the British authorities are unwilling to see the problem. Its no point using MCB to get some reassuring statements. Ultimately, one should judge the actions of muslim groups and not their thetoric. "Peaceful" muslims in the west often contribute financially to terrorist groups.

This internation Jihad phenomena thrives on funding by gulf sheiks and contribution from muslims in the west. The funding is for using semi-iliterate youth from the third world as its foot soldiers. Stop the funding and internation jihad will vanish. Crack down on international jihad and support President Bush as a free thinking ally.

Mr India is making up information again & looking stupid again! do you want me to provide proof again? ok see 2001 British census on the net! youll see that the pakistani population is over 600,000 & 100% against cow worship, calling the cow their Mother, and drinking their urine so i suppose they are 100& radical in Mr Indias eyes! As i keep stating due to their inherent weekness the napak Brahmins use sly tactics and try to stir up others, see how hes trying to be 007 by spying & going under cover, get a life what a joker! for someone who doesnt want to spread hate crime and has many pakistani friends you sure are one sly bugger aint ya? well that is your trait! If only others would take them seriously instead of treating them like half naked fakirs! from the worlds largest shite hole. (by the way it was you who first brought up India see your first post when you tried to make out that it was a Sweden instead of the shite hole that it is)

Have a look at: http://www.mcb.org.uk/presstext.php?ann_id=77 I reproduce views of MCB on the leader of Hamas:

"The Muslim Council of Britain condemns in the strongest terms Israel's criminal assassination of Shaykh Ahmad Isma'il Yasin, the renowned Islamic scholar and founder of the leading Palestinian Resistance Movement - Hamas. "

Yasin incited suicide attacks and MCB calls him a "reonowned Islamic scolar". So MCB beleives indiscrimate suicide attacks on civillians is part and parcel of Islam. So many here believe MCB represent most mulsims in Britain. So how many moderate muslims are there in Britain ? What is more important, can you cope with a rising muslim population ? close your eyes and Nick Griffin and the BNP will get stronger.

This not about India, but with 7-8 % growth rate, the economy will double every generation by 2020 India could be the third largest economy in the world. Invest in India if you want handsome profit.

I do not incite hate crimes. Extremist views and action by muslims attracts hate crimes, not that it justifies it, as the army and police should be left to deal with the situation.

UKMuslim is inciting hate crimes against his community. Someone hot-headed and/or a supporter of the BNP will read his posts and with then be more inclined to commit hate crimes.

An antidote could be for non-muslims to promote this "religion of peace" propaganda, and this concept that 99% of muslims are moderate. But this is not truthful, the truth catches with us in the end, and we have to deal with reality and make the most of it. A reality check from time to time is essential.

Ah yes.....at least the resident main-stream muslim is consistant in his hatred of others....just admit it so I can go about my day......you cannot tolerate anyone of another faith. Or am I taking your hatreds "out of context"?

Hi reality check,

You state

Yasin incited suicide attacks and MCB calls him a "reonowned Islamic scolar". So MCB beleives indiscrimate suicide attacks on civillians is part and parcel of Islam.

this is a bit cheap as you make an unfeasible logical jump and attribute views to the MCB that they don’t say themselves. You can hold views and then act in ways that are not dependant on those views. The MCB may also dispute your assessment of Hamas – I really think it’s unfair to make leaps like this and ascribe views to an organisation that hasn’t said them.

You made another poor logical step earlier by assuming that the way people vote in Pakistan reflects public opinion of people from Pakistan in this country. I don’t accept you 30-40% figure of people in Pakistan being extremists I’d have to look at what those parties said, but I doubt they agreed with 9/11 or many other things that extremists are supposed to support.

On Muslims in the UK, there must be another UK out there because this isn’t the country I live in.

With regard to UKMuslim inciting hate crimes against his community. Well that’s a bit like excusing a rapist because the woman was dress to look attractive. It’s worst than that even as it’s like the rapist saying he once saw a pretty girl dressed attractively and felt that she was representing women so he did what he wanted to another woman. The BNP are responsible for their actions no one else.

When you claimed to be impartial I pointed out that being from an Indian background wasn’t exactly the best basis for impartiality and I think UKMuslims reactions to Hindus shows better than I the baggage between India and Muslims.

Hi UKMuslim,

I’m embarrassed to be from the same country as you. You do sound like you belong in the BNP with some of your comments. It makes your few lucid comments appear to be accidental. You have said things that are valid, but this maybe along the lines of an infinite number of monkeys coming up with Hamlet.

Mr India, so if extremist views and actions attract hate crimes by your logic that would mean the jews in Nazi Germany deserved it? as the Nazis viewed their actions as extreme against Germans, is this what your saying? My first post clearly pointed out their is no such thing as a moderate Muslim either you are a Muslim and you follow the tenents of Islam or you dont, but we will not change so you may like us, we do not live for you! we do not live to be LIKED by you comprende? I have stated facts if you dont like that wandering Brit then thats upto you but i cant change the truth. You make me chuckle youve got no idea the kind of complex interaction that goes on between various asians so keep your analysis about cultural baggage to yourself as im not even a Pakistani! you haven't got a clue mate! i have nothing against hindus but that doesnt mean to say i have to like their practices i know many hindus and we openly talk about various issues i ask them to their face, we dont hate each other, and they openly admit the cow is my mother and i drink urine everyday so what?? what did you expect me to do kill them all?..lol, they'll probably die anyway drinking that crap. I have assumed nothing about anyone but you seem to be assuming alot about me which is a typical reponse in my experience anyway, so analyse & ask yourself why? As for being ashamed tell me something new? The BJP woops sorry, i meant the VHP, oops sorry was it the Nazi loving RSS, no i mean the BNP who dont need me to post on here they were attacking us since well before 11/9 but they know we give as good as we get, so now they have decided to become respectable. There you go again saying its not about India and bringing it up again! and please stop saying i dont want to incite hate crime and then post inciteful statements and quotes, you keep making yourself look like a liar i really dont care and the people on here know you hate Muslims thats why some are on here too, so chill buddy your in good company. If india is now Japan from being a Sweden & growing so fast & is so rich why dont you feed the poor buggers dying in their thousands openly in the gutters??? is it because your slefish, uncharitable, or is it because its the caste system ruled by the Brahmins who deem them untouchable? Remember you get too big for your boots and Uncle Sam will wack you! dont think you can be allies with them like the UK, coz you know & i know that what they say behind closed doors over a glass of whisky & a cigar is very different to what they say to your face when they want something, ask me im British born and bred!

to wandering_brit:

One either thinks that Yasin (the former leader of Hamas) is a renowned islamic scolar of Islam or not; this is not a grey area. Yasin was the mastermind of suicide attacks, were the attackers families were "compensated" for their loss, clearly he insited suicide attacks, and there are suicide attack training schools. This is a form asymmetric warefare. MCB clearly, admire Yasin so they support his policies.

To give a parallel example, one can call Einstein a great physicist, which implies that one believes in relativity. Am I correct ?

UKMuslim: Lets keep the subcontinent stuff out of the discussion.

You are advertising your admiration for OBL and you state it comes out of religious conviction. A propective employer after reading this would most likely throw the application from say a Mohammed Jihadkamina in the waste paper basket. This is what you are attracting for your community. Similarly with the attacks, theres are range of people in the world with a range of temperaments and some may want to attack muslims after reading your posts. I am not justifying it, I am simply stating facts.

You don't understand geopolitics. If there is a convergence of interests then countries do cooperate. The following nations have an interest in defeating internation jihad, US, UK, France, Germany, India, Russia, China, Australia and many others. I can assure you there is extensive cooperation between these nations on this issue. There are tensions between these nations on access to energy resources and other things, but the Jihadi element in the world is on death row. Bush is true to his word "we smoke em out from their caves and get them one by one". Bush calls OBL "the evil one" I thinks he speaks the truth thats why the war on terrorism is a just war.

Most of your remarks are very emotional, and I am not suprised since someone sick like OBL is able to manipulate a large proportion of the islamic world, wereas the rest of us can see right through him.

To wander_brit: if you really want to feel the pulse of the Pakistani nation you have to be able to read Urdu or Punjabi. One can also talk to a real live Pakistani. One Pakistani assures me that a substancial minority are sympathetic to OBL, but also assures me that a substancial minority beleive that partition was a mistake. There are moderates and extremists.

One can't compare an admirer of OBL with a woman !! the former would be question by police if he was known to them, the latter makes up half the population and has every right to dress in any way.

Similarly one can't compare the police with a rapist. The police have to keep order and the courts have to dispense justice, so admirers of OBL will no doubt interest the police and the secuity forces.

To UKMuslim:

My main point is your admiration of Bin Laden does not help you in any way, not in the job market, not for security, or for the moral fabric of your society. Morevoer, OBL and internation Jihad will be defeated, so why cheer for the losing side ? why not join the human race ? Please no viscious remarks about India or its religions, this blog is about something else.

Previously I wrote that muslim are in denial, here I find one who is not: http://www.themodernreligion.com/racism/racism-muslims.html

she write about muslim prejudice against religious minorities in Islamic nations. I respect her for her honesty. I don't hate muslims, its just that denial of islams bloody history creates Bin Ladens. OBL was not created by the US, Jihad was not created by the US.

EUROPES FUTURES UNLESS YOU: (1) get rid of your historic guilt complex (2) try and integrate your muslim population and at the same time stopping the growth of the muslim population:

HERES A POSSIBLE FUTURE: Muslims won't wait to reach a majority of a population in Europe. That will take too long even with the vast disparity in birth rates (up to 50 years). A more likely scenario is that muslims will use their overwhelming numbers at a local level (backed of course by threats, violence and intimidation) to start setting up de facto ethnic enclaves. This process is already well underway in the suburbs of France and Belgium. In the coming years these areas will expand, becoming more islamised and with a virtual 100% muslim population. The government and local authorities will start to lose control over these areas (if this has not started to happen already) and the governing liberal elites will do absolutely nothing to stop this process, enslaved as they are by their own Marxist/PC dogma. Most ordinary people and the media will carry on pretending everything is just fine, just don’t ask questions or think about what’s going on.

The stark choices in the Europe of the not too distant future will be:

1) Do nothing and watch the islamic enclaves grow ever larger, resulting in eventual complete submission to islam for all.

2) Fight the attempted take over of their countries with the inevitable Balkan type war that will follow.

Either way, things are going to get very unpleasant in large parts of western Europe thanks to the years of short sighted policies of the liberal elites.

SO THE EUROPEAN UNION THINK THEY HAVE ABOLISHED WAR IN EUROPE. TRUE EUROPEANS ARE UNLIKELY TO FIGHT EACH OTHER, BUT MUSLIMS ARE THE JOKERS IN THE PACK. IS THIS UNTHINKABLE ? AM I A RACIST ? MAYBE THE IMPOSSIBLE CAN BE POSSIBLE. CIA HAS MADE A SIMILAR PREDICTION FOR EUROPE.

GOOD-BYE EUROPE THANKS FOR EINSTEIN, MONET, HITCH HIKERS GUIDE TO THE GALAXY, THE AGE OF REASON, DANTE AND MANY OTHER THINGS.