damn, this article is so partriotic that i'm going to be crapping red white and blue for the next week!

Your slams on islam are quite ignorant. Terrorists claiming to act in the name of their religion are no more representitive of islam than abortion doctor murderers are of christians.

The photo annoys me. So many war images are censored and then we're allowed to see these. Hell, we're not even supposed to see the caskets of our own dead.

Finally, we're a long way from knowing if we're actually liberating the Iraqis. The violence certainly hasn't calmed yet.

Oh'Really, says we've stabilized the area!!

""This American soldier, doing his duty in a faraway land, brings forth the full throat of compassion in his deeds on behalf of this little child. He is bestowing the fullest measure of human kindness. A final act of tenderness. *********Perhaps the only true act of kindness this child has ever experienced in their brief life.******"

Please justify the last sentence. I know that her lack of peace for 1/3 of her life was created by and delivered to her by Americans. I am not anti-American, nor anti-war (if circumstanced dictate). I am against racism, hatred, terrorism and bigotry.

Please in the future, try not to twist MacArthur into "Ws" agenda.

russ...

i'm sitting here trying hard not to laugh at you.

Don't then, because it's not a laughable matter Sam.

You just by chance happen to be an uncle?

I can show you ten times that many photo's of dead children, babies included, killed by Americans. Those rebels did not intentionally kill that baby in the photo. How do you right wingers call it when you accidently kill women and children... oh yeah I remember COLLATERAL DAMAGE right? To say only the rebels are capable of blowing up civilians is a lie. The US military is much more capable of that and in Iraq and elsewhere they've proven that time and time again. Ask the Iraqi's, Vietnamese, Serbs, Aghani's and all the others.

Wow, a wonderful piece of writing followed by comments of the cold-hearted and ignorant. America didn't kill this child - a radical Islamist terrorist, full of hate for Iraqis and Americans did.

Are you saying that in the case of the picture of the fireman carrying out the body of the baby killed in Oklahoma City was also the fault of America? Why do people always blame America first?

Thank God for my friends in Iraq (Iraqis and American servicemen) who tell me how wonderful America is for helping them. Funny that Iraqis don't care about WMD or Abu Graib - they care that Saddam is gone and that they are now free. Sure it is tough, but the hardest part is over. They know that. They are fine with it.

You all should get over your anti_american feelings. Maybe it's Bush you hate, but if so, don't hate your country as well because he's leading it. You guys just don't get Duty, Honor Country. Thankfully many brave Americans do.

Wow. Even when American soldiers do us proud the trolls come out with a vengence.

Sick

Yes Tim, the terrorsist did not intentionally kill that child. But they did intentionally kill other civilians standing in line trying to join their country's police forces. Peopel trying to bring peace and stability TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY. That's not collateral damage....that's intentionally targeting civilians. That's not moving their country forward...that's dragging it back into hell. That's not a military action...that's terror...that's callously and intentionally using civilians deaths to advance their own selfish cause. That's not producing and working toward peace....that's producing chaos and working for evil.

Don't even try to say this action is in nay way moral or justified. They can because they can...they kill because they have no support amongst their own people....they kill because they like it. Pure evil.

The leftest are so blinded by hate that they cannot see the good that is done by our servicemen. I pity Russ. His life must be a cold dark hell of hate. stewing in his bitterness because finally the majority of Americans are finally seeing the folly of appeasement that the Dem's have lead us into. The concept of good & evil is foreign to him. There's only "His" way. As for Tim, Guys like him always neglect to mention the 2+ million cambodians and perhaps 1 million Vietnamese killed by the kimer rouge & viet cong after the U.S. withdrew from south east asia, the Muslim genocide in serbia, and the insane regime that held executions soccer stadiums in Afganistan that we put a stop to. He probably thinks that we should'nt have interfered with the Nazis.

Very wonderful and moving post. Thank you.

Only critique would be with the line: "Perhaps the only true act of kindness this child has ever experienced in their brief life."

I don't doubt that that child had parents that loved him/her. I'm sure they showed their child every kindness possible (possibly even sacrifices far beyond we know here).

William, Kudos to you for posting such a thoughtful tribute to one of our brothers. The hateful comments from the left, all over the net, regarding this photo is astounding. They wouldn't begin to understand the "code," though they need it more than anyone.

Actually, Mattk, terrorists killing in the name of Islam are quite representative. Here are dates and locations for this year from www.thereligionofpeace.com. Please note that this site does not include items like honor killings and stoning of women, which still occur in Islamic countries. For example, the girl in Gaza that was out with her Gaza tha was killed by Hamas "morality police". Her dead body was dragged into the street and beaten with clubs. Or the father in Qatar who cut his 14 year old daughter's throat in front of her brothers and sisters because he thought that she was having sex. Or the woman who was just murdered in Afghanistan by her father for having an affair. Or the 23 year old gunned down by her brothers in Germany because she moved out and lived on her own. Even better were the comments from nearby Islamic children-she was a whore who deserved it because she lived like a German. Or Theo Van Gogh, murdered on the streets in Sweden because he made a film critical of the treatment of women in Islam. Would you like to see pictures of women being hanged in the wonderful Islamic Repulic of Iran? Available online. Or photos of dead children and other civilians killed by the Janjaweed in wonderful Islamic Darfur? Available online. Or would you like to see the heads of hostages in Iraq having their heads sawn off while the killers chant to Allah? Available online. I will be happy to provide you with the news links for each of these items if you wish. Or just do a daily google search. It will be eye opening. You really need to update your knowledge of what is done in the name of Islam.

go see http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Do you need an instant replay of the little girl in Vietnam, running (human torch), covered with NAPAM? I suppose it was a terrorist there too?

**A final act of tenderness. Perhaps the only true act of kindness this child has ever experienced in their brief life.**

I find the act of kindness statement very twisted and distorted and the anti-Islam hate-mongers attempts at subliminal messages offensive.

I also find it offensive when my service in the military "Duty, Honor Country," is woven into "Ws" misguided agenda.

Is it hate for Bush? No, I just don't like the Liar!

Matt I'm not sure how you could be crapping any colors at all with your head so far up your third point of contact... Bet your annoyance has more to do with recto-cranial constipation than with having put much thinking into reality.

Russ what do you suppose this dead child's peace and happiness would be like if she still lived under Sadaam's rule? Oh yeah, my bad, Sadaam made Michael Moore's top ten list of kind people. "I am against racism, hatred, terrorism and bigotry". Did you develop that line for a Miss America candidate while singing Kumbayah? I'm guessing your supposed service was as a REMF Russ, because real soldiers know better than to be blinded by hatred...which you claim so eloquently to be against. Where I come from that is called hypocrisy Russ.

Newsflash for you Timbo, rebels did not kill that baby. Terrorists did. If they wanted to just kill Americans they would not have bombed in an area where there was a possibility of civilian death. They are cowards bent on killing anyone who stands in their pathetic way.... Then on to the typical lame-o liberal technique of comparing American's to terrorists, and rationalizing evil behavior by saying it is someone elses fault. I guess America must be responsible for just about every bit of death, pain and suffering in the world according to your book. Gee it must suck bad to have to live in a country you despise so much.

Come on anti-American timmy......the way it works is to SHOW THE PROPAGANDA PICTURES you claim to have. That's right timmy.....the military of the U.S. targets civilians because they're just easier to kill, being innocent and unarmed and all that. Our troops are so trigger-happy that they enjoy whacking a few innocents (a claim you've made before). Why don't you use the proper term you have for your murderous comrades....they're obviously "Freedom Fighters".....yet, somehow, they're really only targetting the shi'ite muslims and the Kurds......hmmmmmmmm, which group is left out of that equation?

OF course, all the world's ills are due to the policies of the imperialist U.S.

...and matt, I don't know which photos you're talking about because I've seen plenty of shots of caskets over 2 years....plenty of ugly scenes of dead Iraqis in civilian clothes (of course ALL of the "Freedom Fighters" wear civilian clothes), plenty of dead Americans, plenty of videos by American and foreign press services, etc...what exactly is missing? One thing you might wanna take note of is that the press and the People have no rights on a military base. There is no "right" to take shots of the caskets at Andrews AFB coming off of the cargo planes and if you look at the signs posted every 100 feet or so on the perimeter fencing you'd clearly read: "Warning"...followed by the US code that PROHIBITS photographing, videotaping (etc...) OF ANYTHING without going through the proper military media liason channels.....otherwise, it's called espionage......and those military media liasons follow the guidelines of teh commanding officert and if HE chooses to not let anything in or out....then screw. I actually love it when peace-weenies get arrested for breaking into a military bases during protests of the military....because they think their rights exist on the other side of the fence.....how sadly mistaken they are.

It certainly is a moving picture, and even more moving a moral imperative of what America and its soldiers ought to be.

My only question is, isn't it at the very least possible that we (and by we I mean our political leaders, military leaders, soliders, and all of us as citizens) fall short of that imperative? Isn't America an idea more than anything else, and isn't it possible each instantiation of America has the chance to not live up to that idea?

America is complicated and messy, we have soliders who go above and beyond and exemplify that ideal. We also have political leaders and media feeders that fall so short that it seems they are waging a concerted effort to destroy that idea.

Sarge - The American people have a right to see what their military is doing. The fact that so much is censored is because our government wants people do believe that war is neat and tidy and far away. Its a lie through omission.

Can you explain to me why we're not supposed to see the caskets of our heros?

William,

Very well done. Your tribute is very appropriate and certainly accurately portrays the American fighting man. Despite the other comments here, I have never, NEVER, come across soldiers, sailors, airmen, or Marines who did not fit MacArthur's description. And anyone who has truly served their country, and not themselves, in our military would recognize these characteristics as correct and appropriate.

Treating the deaths of our men and these innocent civilians as a propaganda tool to defeat us is a low and despicable act. Those words have meaning, and tell the world what you truly stand for. If you side with Michael Moore's Minutemen, don't be surprised if you are painted with the same blood they bring to their resistance. If you associate with cowards who kill their own civilians, especially when Americans are not even involved until the rescue and medical response arrives, then you are as great a coward as they. A big man doesn't need to kill several children, including this 6 yr old, to make himself feel like a man.

Call me old fashioned, but deliberately killing kids meets the definition of evil, illegal, and unworthy of praise or forgiveness. American soldiers don't do this. And I'm not ashamed to say so.

Subsunk

Sarge... be careful when you ask for the photos they claim to have. Perhaps another series of fake photos of action figures with ketchup on them or something. Maybe even a cabbage patch doll or something.

Remember that photo of the kid with no arms and legs? Ali was his name. American bombs killed all his relatives and blew his arms and legs off. Ali is just one kid hurt by the US military. He was what you call collateral damage. Insurgents don't target kids deliberate anymore than American soldiers do. However in war these things happen, but don't flatter your self too much. Try to be objective for a change. Not all American soldiers are heroes, only at night in your dreams. Don't mix your dreams with reality!

Check Ali out if you like and see what a few of Uncle Sam's bombs can do to a 13 year old boy.

http://db.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/20031117_armless_iraqi_boy.shtml

The reason that casket photos are not allowed is out of respect for the dead, their families, and their sacrifice. This picture shows what the vast majority of our troops are like. Ask those that have spent time there. They'll tell you. Don't listen to these whiners that want to tell you that we caused this child to die, just by being there. The people setting the bombs want back in power. They want to kill shiites and kurds, cause that's what they've been doing for the past 15 years. They target civilians. THEY are terrorist scum, not us. Yes, there is collateral damage. The U.S. military does it's very best to limit it. The terrorists delight in killing everyone that doesn't believe what they do, be that baathism, or islam. Don't give me that religion of peace garbage, just read the quran, it very clearly tells you this is ehtical.

Oh, and BTW Tim, You just set my BS meter raging. They don't target kids? What fantasy are you living in? They target everyone. Schools, Mosques, Hotels, parks, streets that kids play soccer in, every person on the planet is a viable target to them. They strapped a bomb to a kid with Down's syndrome on election day. THEY USED A DISABLED KID, AND FORCED HIM TO CARRY A BOMB! Don't you dare tell me they don't target kids. I've seen firsthand video, taped by my unit in Iraq. IED, right next to a park full of kids and moms.

Check out this website too. Man, give me another five minutes and I come up with another 1.000 photo's of dead or wounded Iraqi children killed by US bombs or bullets.

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_iraq_war03.html

Oops, I misspoke, The quran says this is ethical if the target was an infidel or apostate. Let me make that clear. You and I are ethical targets.

Chad you ignorant dumb fuckface. What do you think shiites and kurds are? They are muslims too and for them the quran is just as holy. Fact still remains you killed more innocent civilians than the insurgents. Way in the fuck more. You call them collateral damage. Nice!

I was reading through all the crap from the left here, and had so much to say in response, then Chad said it for me.

by the way mattk, you DO know that when Clinton was pres the same rule about casket photos was in place?

another thing, you DON'T know that the Iraqis have been liberated? Where have you been?

Tim.... thank you ever so much for reminding us about Ali. BTW, where is he now? Last I heard, he was in the US getting the world's best medical attention. On the subject of children, Tim, would you care to enlighten us about the children's prisons in Iraq under Saddam...that's right, Tim, CHILDREN'S prisons....when people were locked up or executed for any reason, and under Saddam, it didn't take much for that to happen, any children of that hapless father/mother were put in prison. Saddam was the most twisted, vile form of life on the planet, along with his sons...and now, presto chango, there are NO more children's prisons in Iraq.....didn't see you note that in any of your posts.....

Also, Sarge, the caskets do not come into Andrews AFB in Maryland (home of Air Force One) but to Dover AFB in Delaware.

tim: "Insurgents don't target kids deliberate anymore than American soldiers do."

LIAR!

Insurgents Target Children of Ramadi

Amazing how tim lies on behalf of criminals and murderers that violate the laws of war as a tactic and then lies again to smear the American military.

Hey tim, see if you can find me some of the photos from the kurdish village that Saddam gassed. How about the mass graves? Can you find me some of those? How many of the pictures of children that you say were killed by americans were actually killed by collateral damage from a bomb aimed at americans? Not fired by americans, aimed at them. You do realize that you will not find thousands of them, right? There's been roughly 20,000 iraqis killed. Roughly 85-90% of that figure were killed by other Iraqis, or were insurgents themselves. Yes, Americans have killed Iraqis. Do you honestly believe that an american soldier willingly and maliciously walked out into the street and thought to themself "time to go shoot some kids"? I can tell you that this does not happen, and if it did, that individual would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the UCMJ, if they made it back to the states alive. We soldiers are not murderous bastards that delight in rape, torture, or murder. We do the job to secure your freedoms, your rights, and to promote the cause of liberty around the world. Loss of human life is not our goal. We don't like seeing kids get hurt any more than anyone else. Does it happen? Do innocents sometimes get hurt? Yes, but never on purpose. We lose our own comrades, our own brothers and sisters to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. That's what the rules of engagement are for. Not to keep our casualties down, but to protect the innocent. We let the bad guys get away sometimes to keep people from getting hurt, and we do it knowing that they'll be back to shoot at one of us tomorrow. It makes me sick that anybody would say that we don't care about Iraqis, when we've spent our blood, and our comrades blood, to give them freedom from a twisted, vile dictator.

Such a powerful picture and on-target reminder of what characterizes an American soldier.

The scumpuppies callous comments above mine are so out of character for liberals. But, when you hate America so much, I guess anything goes, even glee over the death of an innocent....simply disgusting.

Tim-Terrorists don't target children? One word: Beslan.

Try this link to see what happens to kaffir children under the gentle rule of Islam. http://www.darfurgenocide.org/darfur.php

This photo moved me to tears as well.

The most infuriating thing about the leftists and their "we get what we deserve" attitudes is that it faciliates the obfuscation of crimes committed around the rest of the world. The Americans did not commit this crime, the homicide bomber did (common thread in these comments and it's worth reiterating).

Further, other nations have committed heinous acts in the history of the world, what do we get to do to their citizens for those crimes? Hmm? What can I do to Germans for the Holocaust, to Russians for the 10 million murdered by Stalin or for the Gulag, to the Chinese, for their ongoing horrific civil rights violations? Hmmmm???? WHY do leftists so completely ignore the horrors of the rest of the world and say that because we do XYZ, we deserve the WTC attacks, we earned the hatred of the rest of the world?

What does the UN "earn" by failing to prevent genocide? Mass rape? Mass death and dismemberment at the hands of machete wielding marauders? Hmmmm????????

A lot of killing fields have been pointed out in these post. Most important are the trenches full of bodies being discovered every day in Iraq. What, nineteen new sites in the past few days. One of them was opened and out of the first 135 bodies removed, all but five were women and children. You have to love a left wing liberal that wants to glorify Saddam and protect his henchmen, evidently no one in their family ever showed them any love or taught them right from wrong. No wonder the prisons are all over full.

I find it interesting that tim needs to link to a website in the uk in order to show the destructive side of the war.

Chad - Why is it disrespectful to photograph the caskets of US soldiers? I think thats a cop out. The soldiers are proud of what they give to their country - why should they hide the ultimate sacrifice? So many people in our country have sacrificed little for the war, they should see what other people give.

Lisa - I'll take your word that the rule was the same under clinton - but i think the rule plays much differently in a time of war.

Scrapiron - Take your insults elsewhere. No liberals are glorifying Saddam. Rather, many are against his destructive actions but don't see the US's reaction as being the answer - at this point we can only be sure that it has brought more destruction. Only the future will tell us if it will have improved Iraq.

Tim, You are so stupid that you do not even warrant a response.

Matt,

The fact that Tim is able to freely gain access to a website in the UK that shows those items disproves your own point to Scrapiron. Tim did not have to travel to the UK to get the photos. They can be accessed here in the United States, no?

Also, if the U.S. reaction is not the answer...What is? My country is not perfect. But it is still the most benevolent and free country in the world. I support it in it's justified use of military force to kill as many evil Islamist Radicals, Nazis, Communists, Baathists, Domestic Terrorists, or other evil people past and present who wish to take our freedoms away.

Your arguments are shallow as they never offer solutions. Only criticism. Sad.

The picture above is really heart breaking. I as an american grieve for those lost in this war. I am not one that always watchs the news or reads up on the war. But my father is, He is retired military. I as a military "brat" I was always worried for my father. But i never took in context what about the innocent civlains that die also. I am now more intersted in the forfronts of this war. I hope that all of our soldiers are as warm hearted as this soldier. Bless america and I hope that everyone that reads this is as moved as i was.

Wow, you really must calm down here! All I wanted to show you guys is your army isn't some sort army from paradise full of heroes. It's an army of flesh and blood, some guys are okay others are warcriminals.

Chad if you fought in Iraq you must know the word you grunts use for Iraqi's. You call em hajji's right. How denigratory! Just like in Vietnam were you called the Vietnamese dinks or gooks. You place yourself above them and think your better.

That article of insurgents targetting a school in Ramadi is an article I don't trust. I didn't find it anywhere else, just on that website. It smells of propaganda. American soldiers in Iraq only care about one thing. You know Chad if you were there. All soldiers care about that the most. To stay alive and keep their buddies alive. They dislike the situation they're in and in such a war as in Iraq they distrust the population (like in Vietnam). That causes them to treat the population in a hostile way. Man, we're not hearing even 5% of all the crimes being commited against ordinary Iraqi's. Units are tight and no one can speak about these things. But warcrimes are being commited. It happens in all wars and most of the times the public never hears anything about it. Friends I know who have family in Iraq are telling me how American GI's parade the streets and treat ordinary Iraqi's. They act like God!

As for critizing any other dictator. Of course I'm against anyone who is against democracy and human rights. That goes without saying. But that doesn't mean I can't critize US foreign policy.

Bring back Dougy! We need a leader that shall return. "There is no substitute for victory!"! Sombody get Dougy's quote to my liberal, friend of the ACLU, President. We must win the War on Terror! Support Minutemen.

Mattk, the reasons it's considered disrespectful:

1.) the soldier's family has not yet had time to see a body, casket, or properly grieve yet. This is so that they can be the first to see the remains.

2.) propaganda that would use our hallowed dead's caskets for something they would not have endorsed while living.

3.) out of respect for the dead.

Matt, I don't know if you'll get this, but I'll try. My aunt recently passed away. Going to the funeral home, and seeing her body was a bit unnerving. Now imagine that before our family had gotten to see her, a newspaper had put pictures of her on their front cover, and was ranting and raving about their political ideology, and it was something she abhorred while alive? I don't know about you, but people taking pictures of bodies kinda creeps me out, whether soldiers or not.

Thanks for sharing. The pic is a savage reminder of the madness of terrorism. That such a blind weapon kills more innocent civilians than its intended target. Your words are powerfully evocative and so well written. Hope you don't mind, but I've used your pic with my own words on my blog in UK. I have attributed my sources of course. Thanks

All wars have children as casualties and adult civilians. Not everyone in a war "deserves to die". If anyone thinks the US and UK haven't done this in the past I suggest you look up Dresden and Hiroshima. Nobody planning Dresden or Hiroshima could possibly have believed that children wouldn't have died. As time has gone on targeting systems have improved and people have tried to reduce the "innocents" death count. If they didn't want to do this themselves this would have been done due to the increasing media involvement in war. If governments learnt anything from Vietnam it was that reporting from wars influenced home opinion, which in turn influenced the militaries ability to fight the war. So now of course it's part of the militaries and governments job to manage the media.

This image would obviously be promoted by western governments and images that show the deaths of innocents would be subtly or not so subtly suppressed to some degree. Why has this image been promoted well it shows one side of the US forces in Iraq - the side the US government wants you to see.

Are there US soldiers killing kids and civilians for fun in Iraq, quite possibly. The military is a cross-section of society and unfortunately that means there's good and bad. I doubt if there's many as it harms the military actions over there by being very bad press and even if the military were amoral enough to tolerate this sort of behaviour it would be against it on purely practical grounds. Killing civilians has to be tolerated on some level because you can't fight a war and guarantee you'll only hurt your military opponents - this is the nature of war, but in modern times

I'm willing to bet just like Vietnam in 20 years there will be some who served in Iraq who will still be having nightmares over what they did there. Soldiers are often causalities of wars years after the war has ended. Sometimes they are causalities of their own conscience.

I don't think this image is a reason to deny all the bad that happens in war and I don't think this image is a good reason to condemn all of Islam as bad. This image is one moment between two individuals in a huge country over hundreds of days of conflict. If you think it represents all that the US has done in Iraq you’re wrong and if you think this is purely a propaganda moment you're equally wrong.

Tim, I have not yet been to Iraq. My unit went without me, and I was not, nor have been allowed to go. Yes, they came back with some stories about "hajis", and yes, there are some that show they might have been distrustful of the civilians there. They tell me about the checkpoints they manned, where they searched vehicles, when they were lied to, stolen from, and when they were afraid of being shot at. They told me about the great interpreters they worked with, the Iraqi soldiers and police they admired, the kids they gave candy and toys to. They told me about the one lady that drove her herd of camels through the camp, even though she was supposed to drive them around it instead, and how they helped her round up the ones that got lost. The told me about the truck driver's lives that got saved by one of our guys at the checkpoint, and how he grabbed a fire extinguisher, and ran in to keep the FUEL truck that was on fire from blowing up. They told me about the kids that would come around, and how they treated most of them like their little brothers and sisters, and the ones that tried to steal stuff, they took home. They've showed me videos, pictures, and journals. They've told me all about it. They don't candy-coat it. They are aggressive soldiers. Sure, when somebody lies to them, tries to steal from them, or shoots at them, well, they get a little hostile. Wouldn't you? Never once have they related a story where any unnecessary force was used. They had to get a little rough once in a while, but the guy that lied to them about the EXPLOSIVES IN HIS CAR was not beaten. He was face down on the ground, forced there while they zip-tied his hands. They then proceeded to stand him up, search him, dust him off, and wait for the MPs. These "warcrimes" that some keep bringing up, well, show me evidence. Every time I hear about something, it's being investigated, or has already been investigated. Show me some proof. The soldiers you so callously call "warcriminals" are americans, raised just like you and me. Where do you get off saying that they are committing crimes? What crimes? As to the family members of people that are over there, how can you be sure their own politics aren't coloring their re-telling of the facts? I've seen video of units doing the day to day patrols. If they acted like "gods", why would people come up to thank them, and why would kids follow them around? They are not the arrogant bastards you propose. If you are a soldier, or have ever been, you'd know what I'm saying. This is not the army of the vietnam era. These people have all volunteered, and I think that brings up the quality, and attitude of our force. Now you Vietnam vets, don't get upset. I'm not saying you didn't serve honorably, and that you weren't good soldiers. I'm just saying that I perceive the morale and attitude to be a step up from what it was. I study military history, it's my hobby. Do you realize that no other army in history has had such strict codes for dealing with civilians, rules of engagement, and provided medical aid to the civilian populace? It's true. Check the facts.

Tim, the last thing we in America desire, is some moronic, envy-filled, brainwasher of children, telling us what we need to know about our military. Instead, why don't you tell us all about your lovely,LITTLE, country? I'd be very interested to know what goes on there.

Chad, Tim "gets off saying" they are committing crimes because he ISN'T an American. Just a silly European leftist.

Oh, and Tim, ever use the terms, redneck, yank, or american with disdain in your tone? Same as using the word "hajji".

Chad:

I served in Viet Nam, and you are correct. The the then Company and Field Grade Officers took the failings of the Viet Nam era Army to heart and did a real good job of producing a well trained and modivated group of soldiers and Marines.

The Romans believed that the harder you train in peace the less you bleed in war, this is proven in the job our young men and women in Uniform have done in Iraq and Afganistan.

Bill

Chad, prove of crimes commited is out there for anyone who takes the effort to look closer at what's happening. Abu Ghraib was not an incident. Treatment of captured Iraqi's hasn't been good at several prisons or prisoncamps. Several soldiers who either deserted or came back wounded spoke of the way Iraqi civilians were being treated. Not good. That doesn't mean every American soldiers is treating civilians bad, it does prove some treat civilians bad. Like I said, in war these things happen. It is useless to deny it. The question is on what scale crimes are being commited. I'm sure the scale of crimes being commited was larger during the Vietnam War. That war in general was more intense so it's logical the amount of crimes being commited was higher than in Iraq. Just recently I saw a documentary on television about wounded American soldiers. They were bittered and some said they wanted to see the whole country (Iraq) bombed back to the stone age. If you see one of your comrades killed or maimed that does something to you. It is only logical you become more agressive towards the people you blame for that. In Iraq the enemy can be anyone. A similar situation was going on in Vietnam. That has an effect on the way GI's view ordinary Iraqi citizens. They distrust them. Of course they play with the kids and help people every now and than, but they realize danger is everywhere. In general the Iraqi people are nor their friends and they know it. And Hajji is a common word used by soldiers for Iraqi's. It's not used by just a few GI's.

Chad - You're making up reasons why photos of coffins can't be seen and they just aren't true. First, maybe I'm ignorant, but I can't tell who is actually inside of a military coffin, so how can the family know its a photo of their loved one? Perhaps the context of the casket, but then only people intimately familiar with the situation would be able to recognize it.

Any images from war can be used for anti-war propaganda. Does that mean we're no longer allowed see anything from the war? That is propaganda in and of itself. "Nothing to see here, move along"

Finally, there is nothing disrespectful about photographing our fallen soldiers. Its obvious that they are treated with extreme care and pride.

I'm not arguing for freakin' open casket photos, you're the one who seems to be drawing that into the debate.

Saddam-lovers, Show me a photo of an "insurgent" rescuing and hugging a child wounded by the big bad Americans.

Then maybe you'll have a point.

Mattk, It doesn't matter if you know who's inside the casket. The picture of the casket IS your relative. You don't know if the one that gets it's picture taken is your family or not. It doesn't matter. They are all your family precisely because you don't know if it was or not. And you are dead wrong about the fact that there's nothing disrespectful about photographing the dead. Without the familiy's permission, no photos should be taken. Period. The people that fly caskets home, that unload them from the planes, they treat these hallowed dead with the utmost in respect and dignity. Some nameless uncaring shutterbug snapping pictures for pay from a fence shows none of that reverence for their sacrifice. Are you a soldier?

And Tim, you just proved my point. Yes, there are "incidents" in war. Abu Ghraib, investigated, reprobates on trial. Mosque shooting, investigated. Abuse of prisoners, being investigated. Ilario Pantano, being investigated. You show me a war crime, I can show you an investigation. It's not happening in secrecy. That's Hotel Sierra of the highest order. If it's indecent or inhumane, it will be reported. My unit stopped Iraqis from beating the $h!t out of each other on a regular basis. Do you think they'd then turn around and mistreat them some more? They'd have just let the first guy finish the job. Yeah, I've said it too, "lets turn it all into a glass parking lot"! Do I really mean it, no. Would I do it, no. We understand the difference. Yeah, when somebody aims bombs, guns and rockets at you, you get a little hostile. We are a disciplined army. We do not indulge in the petty little revenges you imagine. It's unadulterated sewage that's running out of your keyboard. There is no grand scale of abuse by coalition forces. For that you need to look to the U.N. in africa.

From someone who was there...... Mosul

Major Mark Bieger found this little girl after the car bomb that attacked our guys while kids were crowding around. The soldiers here have been angry and sad for two days. They are angry because the terrorists could just as easily have waited a block or two and attacked the patrol away from the kids. Instead, the suicide bomber drove his car and hit the Stryker when about twenty children were jumping up and down and waving at the soldiers. Major Bieger, I had seen him help rescue some of our guys a week earlier during another big attack, took some of our soldiers and rushed this little girl to our hospital. He wanted her to have American surgeons and not to go to the Iraqi hospital. She didn't make it. I snapped this picture when Major Bieger ran to take her away. He kept stopping to talk with her and hug her.

The soldiers went back to that neighborhood the next day to ask what they could do. The people were very warming and welcomed us into their homes, and many kids were actually running up to say hello and to ask soldiers to shake hands.

Eventually, some insurgents must have realized we were back and started shooting at us. The American soldiers and Iraqi police started engaging the enemy and there was a running gun battle. I saw at least one IP who was shot, but he looked okay and actually smiled at me despite the big bullet hole in his leg. I smiled back.

One thing seems certain; the people in that neighborhood share our feelings about the terrorists. We are going to go back there, and if any terrorists come out, the soldiers hope to find them. Everybody is still very angry that the insurgents attacked us when the kids were around. Their day will come.

William,

That was an amazing and beautiful post.

A thought. Granted, the 10% rule applies and you have your share of jerks in the service.

But what those who haven't served don't seem to understand is that with an all-volunteer force, you get a majority of individuals voluntarily taking that oath. Some are more selfless than others, some are more competent than others, but virtually all have affirmatively taken a greater step toward service and self-sacrifice to a greater good--their country and the people with whom they serve--than anyone on the outside will ever take.

Not to say that civilians cannot do good for others and for society -- of course they can -- but that enlistment or commission radically changes the nature of every day life for our Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen.

Bad incidents happen, but one thing you miss when your exposure to the military consists entirely of CNN and a handful of war movies is the nature of conflict. I never heard a shot fired in anger, but I'll be damned if my training and study didn't expose my buddies and me to a different perspective.

And good God -- if you slam troops because some have used a derogatory term ... Prejudice is a terrible thing, but how did it become the cardinal sin? You're missing a big piece of the puzzle if you zero in on that.

Again, William, job well done.

Tim:

I spent two years in Viet Nam and never saw any war crimes, maybe I was in the wrong place, I was a Sqaud leader in a Rifle Platoon.

If I was a REMF or a Wanna Be, like most of those "The Winter Soldier Investigation", I could have had flash backs to all of the horrid things that I saw, when I served or did not serve in Viet Nam or in some cases the military.

Bill

Tim convienently ignores the massive pile of evidence suggesting that most Iraqi's see this situation the same way I see and don't know what the hell he's talking about.

Bill

Warcrimes can be small or big. Can be a company whiping out a village like My Lai. It can be a few soldiers raping a girl. It can be a soldier killing some one for no reason. Other than that, there more ways to show your disregard or dislike for the people in the country you're fighting in. Calling them gooks, dinks or hajji's. Making fun of them. Stuff like that.

If you spent two year full years in Vietnam and didn't see anything wrong, you're very lucky. Most veterans saw a lot and regret some of the things they did over there. Have you watched Platoon? What do you think about that movie and the director? And you never answered my question about Tim O'Brien. Have you read any of his books? He's a veteran too and very popular among Vietnam veterans.

MJ, keep on dreaming. The average Iraqi wants you out of the country.

Obviously, the American military is out there targetting civilians when they're not busy targetting the Journalists to keep them quiet about all those "war crimes" that have been committed.....and no, anti-American Euro punk, the mistreatment of prisoners (against the ROE and SOPs of the US military) is not a "war crime."

matt....the People have ZERO RIGHTS to see photos and videos concerning ANYTHING that goes on on ANY military base. Your supposed "rights" end at the perimeter fence. Just because you want to use these photos (which, although they were "censored", I've seen for 2 years now)...as propaganda, doesn't mean you have the "right" to go on a military base to get 'em. Go ahead and try, but when the guard says "HALT!!!", you'd better forget your independent nature and do what he says.

Tim,

using "platoon" as a reference for facts about the vietnam war is like me using "the matrix" as a reference for computer programming. The ONLY vietnam war movie made DURING the vietnam war was the Green Berets with John Wayne. Anything else was biased by the political stance Hollowwood wanted to create. "We Were Soldiers" was written by a man on that field of battle that wrote about the war. That saw it all. I'd take his opinions before "platoon" style dramatizations any day. We are not talking about vietnam, anyway. This is about Iraq, and your conclusions that a large number of U.S. soldiers and marines are committing war crimes. Give me names, dates, video, or anything of substantial proof, and I'll connect you with CID, or JAG. That's what soldiers do, they defend the truth. If you're just running off at the mouth because "americans are bad, soldiers are bad", well, then just back it up, and I'll sing along. This soldier in the photo picked up and carried a wounded Iraqi girl to get her to the best treatment possible. I'm sure that somehow, to your mind, that's criminal. Was he the cause of the bombing? Maybe that's your rationale. Then why didn't the insurgents target them after they drove away from the children? Why didn't the terrorists warn the children? They don't care if innocents get killed. Obviously (see above picture) our guys do.

Tim, please ignore this and this and especially stuff like this and all the other stuff too. We wouldn't want your head to explode from rapid depresurization, should you remove it from your ass too quickly.

Platoon was a Hollyweird MOVIE, made by Hollyweird LEFTISTS. They delight in showing only the bad about America,and the military. ESPECIALLY when it comes to Vietnam.

Sarge:

One of the things about Pisses me off about people who have never served in Army or Marine grunt Units is their ignorance about how these units operate.

Most of them think it is an armed mob slavering to kill all living things, rather than a very tightly disaplined group of men working under rules and orders to accomplish a mission. You can go to jail alot quicker in the Infantry than you can in civiliam life.

Cally weak officer, Capt. Medina, was my commander in the states in '67 and a fine Officer and a tight disiplinarian who made my job as an NCO a good deal easier.

I am kind of proud that the Trooper with the kid is from the 25th.

Bill

In brief, I will say my argument against this article is the manner in which William chooses to portray the American soldier (like he really knows). Then he chooses to portray Islam and the Palestinians in a totally different light. Yeah, like we are either bad or good.

It's good that he can quote Gen. MacArthur, it would be helpful if he could see past his hatred and understand what he quotes.

I wasn't and didn't put down the soldier in the photo. For the sugar-tit ninnies that don't know; the photo was propaganda. Army propaganda. For you that don't believe, then you might ask yourself why the Army photographer wasn't taking the pics in AG prison. All soldiers are not alike, nor are all human beings. It's wrong to lump them all together.

Yes, Saddam Hussein is evil, and I don't know anyone who disputes this. He was no less evil when Rummy was shaking his hand 20 years ago.

To all the Vietnam war buddies thumping their chest, why didn't you bring the round-eye babies home? That would have been the kind and right thing to do. Maybe the time their Mom spent with the GI was the only kindness she had experienced.

Russ, that's just crass. Why don't you ..... aw, hell, I can't think of any act that could be performed on you that would make up for that comment.

Oh, and Russ, go over to www.michellemalkin.com and read the report from the AP reporter that took the picture (note: not a soldier, an AP reporter).

Platoon is a good movie because it's gets close to reality. Oliver Stone went to Vietnam and fought for his country. He got shot and almost died. He made a movie about his experiences together with people who were there (in Vietnam) too. Veterans who saw that movie were shocked. Some veterans still don't want to see the movie because they're afraid of their reaction to it. John Kerry fought for his country and got wounded as well. I guess he's not a patriot either. All because both men had the courage to critize the foreign policy of their country. A country which they love. But I guess you can't love your country and critize it's policies every now and than at the same time. That's right wing logic. When you're an American they call you unpatriotic when you do. When you're not American they call you anti-American. End of discussion. Nice and simple!

Chad I can't make you understand what I mean obviously. But I think you know what I mean. I hope you will be safe when you go to Iraq and hopefully will not return with a fucked up feeling about how things are over there. Of course much will depend on the area you will be deployed in.

Bill, seems like you're having a hard time answering my question. You're not by any chance ignoring me, now are you Billy boy?

BTW does the name Senator Max Cleland rings a bell with you right wing fooks? He dared to critize certain aspects of Bush' plans for Homeland Security and they nailed him. They showed him in commercial together with Bin Laden and Saddam. Max Cleland lost both legs in Vietnam and did so much for his country. What did Bush do? Or Cheney? Or Rumsfeld? None of them served their country. They only care about themselves. When are you going to see that?

Tim, I guess we'll agree to disagree. Thanks for the well-wishing, and I'm pretty sure I'll be fine. I know why I do what I do, and I know that I would never shoot an unarmed civilian on purpose. Don't worry about me, I'll be just fine. Just pray that those guys are right about paradise and their 72 virgins, because if I catch them trying to blow up kids, well, that's all they're gonna get. Oh, they might get me, but that's irrelevant. It's part of the job.

Tim, About a month or so ago you posted something like " I hope Iran get a million nukes and blows you to hell." I thinks that pretty much makes you as anti-american as you can get.

I've noticed you've never said anything about the Allies bombing your country, and the Dutch citizens that were killed by their bombs. Is it because you're safe and free to speak your onions now, or because you're so young that it's ancient history to you? It wasn't really all that long ago.

The allies didn't bomb, or hardly bomb my country. I sure hope you're not confusing Germany with the Netherlands, but it looks like it. Some people get confused because Dutch looks a lot like Deutsch, but it's not the same. So Jay H, clear that up for me if you want.

As for me saying "I hope Iran will get a million nukes and blow you to hell". I don't believe I ever said it like that, but it's quite possible somebody made me extremly angry and I have a short temper. When I say extreme things like that, do me a favor and don't take it too serious. A million nukes to blow you to hell? I must have been totally fucking filled with anger.. haha!!

Chad, What ever you think, I'm not against you.

To be real sure, very sure, I'm not for the insurgents, terrorists, fanatics that fight using the tactics that are being used.

In regard to the photo, I saw it marked as US Army, courtesy of.....(on more that one site) That's what I was going by. Go to MM? This site has enough right-twist for me on any given day. Whoever took the photo BTW, doesn't take away from the slant presented by William.

I am not saying anything against the soldier. If you choose to see it that way, that's a choice too. If you think I will take everything that's presented to me as the truth...especially coming from a war zone....think again.

All who practice Islam do not believe in the jihad, nor the interpretation that's being used to commit jihad. If you believe that all do, then there would be no safe place in Iraq for most Americans.

Tim,

It won't do much for you, but you might find Cornelius Ryan's _A Bridge Too Far_ good reading. The bad news is that it is thick and fact-laden. The good news is that it was made into a fantastic movie that stays pretty close to the source material. Granted, you lose out on that Platoon dynamic, but what can be done?

I can get angry, too -- but I'll avoid calling you names, because I don't want to commit a war crime.

""Russ, that's just crass. Why don't you ..... aw, hell, I can't think of any act that could be performed on you that would make up for that comment.""

My apologies Chad, I thought you had been there. "They told me about it." You are the same as the rest of the sugar-tit ninnies here. What did I say that you thought was crass? It wasn't the thousands of round-eye orphaned babies was it?

Just messin with ya' a little. I hope you don't have to go.

Russ, I'm not saying you need to read her whole site, just read the part in the bluish-grey box under the photo. It's written by the AP reporter that took the photo. It really is a worthwhile read, right or left. As to the jihad, I know that there are many muslims that just wish to live in peace. However, if you study the quran, well, it's hard to justify that all muslims are not commanded to practice jihad. That being said, those that are actually peaceful have my thanks for choosing to not follow the letter of the law. The problem lies in the fact that to the practitioners of the law of jihad is that it's pretty much an end to a means theology. You take over an area. You tax it beyond what the inhabitants can bear. If they become muslim, you stop taxing them. When those that don't convert can't pay anymore, you kill them. That's the theory in a nutshell. That's where my dislike of the islamic faith comes from. That and faith in Jesus Christ, but I'm rational enough to study in order to make my arguments and apologies. Now, those that don't follow the strict/extremist interpretation will be next on the list of targets, right after infidels. Why? Because for not following all the doctrines of the strict interpretation, they are now labeled as apostate. That ranks right behind Infidel.

Oh, and Russ, the remark I was referring to as Crass, that was the one about the round-eye babies. Man, that's wrong. There were people that wanted to do just that. They weren't allowed to. That's not here and now, so I won't say any more about it.

Tim, The Allies were bombing South Holland in 1945 because the Nazis were launching V2 rockets at England from there.

Actually Russ, I'm hoping I do. I've been wanting to do the really important stuff for 10 years. They've never asked me to. When my chance comes, they tell me "no". You snuck that last one in before my latest reply to the comment before that, so, I don't need to rehash most of it. I just want you to know, the reason I want to go. I want to go because I want to protect the Iraqi people. I want them to know liberty, freedom, equality, and safety. Most of them have never felt these things. I want to give them what I took for granted for so long. I have family and friends that don't understand, and I don't really expect you to either. It's the right thing to do, and that is why it needs to be done. Not for politics. Not for partisanship. Not because I bleed red white and blue. It's the right thing to do. Now if only we could get everybody around the world to do this for ALL of the oppressed, I'd be happy. But I'll do it because it needs to be done, because it's the right thing to do, and because that's why I wear the uniform.

Tim:

I was in A/2/35, 3rd Bde, 25 Division, just around the time Stone arrived, never knew him except he is full shit, by all accounts.

I have more time in the latrine than he had, in country, John F'n. I also refused to get a Purple Heart Veterans Plate, for some of the shitty little scratches that I recieved, and I didn't write the orders. I know a lot of people who recieved more serious wounds than I who deserved the Honor.

By the way Cleland was a clueless REMF, who pickup a grenade and did himself in. I was in the 12th Evac, with an Arty Battery Commander, who lot both legs and an arm in a guns in a circle attack on a fire base, who is the bigger hero, he got the Silver Star and it wasn't by shooting a wounded VC as John F'n did, he didn't write his citation either.

Bill

Bill

South Holland? The whole of south Holland or specific target areas where V2's were launched from? My country wasn't bombed very intense by the allies. Germany was however. All German cities were leveled and the civilian population with them. Dresden is the most horrific example.

This trooper may be wearing the patch of the 25th, but his Brigade is no longer stationed WITH the 25th....they're with the 1st Stryker brigade in Ft. Lewis....but that's just a tid-bit....I still like seeing the patch.

As for Oliver Stone serving in Viet Nam, yay, I respect him for that....but he also wrote part of his experience into Platoon, though took the liberty to change the facts some. That being the part where Charlie Sheen passes the guard off to Junior, Junior falls asleep on guard...Charlie Sheen wakes up to find the enemy 5 feet away and freezes, and when his brothers opened fire, he continually tried to detonate the claymores, without taking off the safeties......only it was Oliver Stone that fell asleep on guard, woke up, froze, tried to fire his m-16 with the safety on and was wounded on the side of the neck.

After only a week in Vietnam, he was caught up in a night ambush. He fell asleep during his watch, only to discovery the Viet Cong were almost on top of his platoon. He forgot his training and silently stared. A comrade opened fire. Stone finally pulled his trigger, but he had forgotten to take the safety off his M-16. He was wounded in the neck.

I-hope-Iran-nukes-the-U.S.-timmy is just one of the many personalities inside timmy's head. Nice-nice timmy, anti-American timmy, talking-tough-and-threatening-to-kick-everyone's-ass timmy. Weird thing about multiple personalities is that none of 'em know the others are there.

Charlie Seen played Stone in the movie. He fell asleep on guard duty, woke up with the enemy right in front of him and panicked. He didn't fire his m-16 or detonated his claymores. Do you blame him for falling asleep? Could be, but he was being honest about that, since Sheen is playing him in the movie. After all it was just his first week in Vietnam. He had to build up some routine. He did that and served 15 MONTHS in Vietnam. After getting shot a second time he was discharged. What is your point Sarge? I guess you don't even have a point, do you?

http://www.vietnamwar.net/Stone.htm

I think people are generalizing on both sides of the fence here. I agree with Tim about one thing. Islam, in and of itself, is not the enemy. There are plenty of Muslims who do not subscribe to the terror which is being committed in the name of Islam. In fact, the majority of Iraqis actually want us there, treat us fairly and respectfully and yet, they're all Muslims. Islam has been twisted and perverted in order to drum up and recruit support for terrorist factions. There is a very dangerous minority within the Muslim community who follow a very twisted and perverted form of Islam. These people are dangerous, and I agree, they should be given no quarter and shown no mercy. These terrorists are the enemy. Islam is not. When you condemn Islam, you condemn the ENTIRE nation of Islam, most of whom are peaceful people who want to grow old leading a peaceful life. You can tell me all you want about how the Koran says, "Kill the infidels," and I'll tell you you're right. Muslims were instructed to "kill the infidels" in Mecca which is a historical reference to a historical conflict against the idol worshippers of Mecca only. The idol worshipper of Mecca were amassing to slaughter any and all Muslims they found. This does not, in any way, mean that Muslims desire to kill Americans or our allies. Hatred of Islam has but one outcome... the complete and total alienation of all Muslims. America cannot fight the entire nation of Islam. Make no mistake about this..., we will lose. It is in the best interest of all Americans to learn to understand and support the peaceful aspect of the Islamic community while routing out and persecuting the hateful aspect.

Let me address "honor killings" for a moment. Honor killing, as someone described earlier, is a very disturbing and dispicably inhuman tradition within the Muslim culture... not the Islamic religion..., but the Muslim culture. Not everyone subscribes to it, but, while it is illegal in many Muslim countries, it is not heavily enforced and punishment is generally minimal. Yes, this disgusts me as it should everyone with any sense of decency. Keep in mind that honor killing is not restricted to the Muslim culture either. It can be found in various parts of the world, including many Eastern cultures. It was not uncommon to find "morality" killings in Christian history either. This was what the book "The Scarlet Letter" was about. Adultery could carry a sentence of death in the Christian culture. Our culture has justifiably dispensed with these traditions. We're a very progressive country. The Muslim world is progressing, but they do have a ways to go, to be sure. Honor killings are being prosecuted in Jordan more frequently now and they're carrying heavier sentences... not perfect, but better. Progress takes time.

I appreciate photographs like the one pictured here. I have a deep love for our military, having personally been a part of it for seven years of active duty. I have seen many instances of compassion from our military. I've seen GI's give up precious liberty time to rebuild an orphanage for HIV infected children. I've witnessed the joy my fellow soldier's felt from the small bit they did to make these children's lives better. I remember the laughter we all had wrestling around and playing with these children. The American Soldier is more than a fighting man..., he's the spirit of America. Unless you've been one though, I don't think you'll ever truly understand. Thank you for this photo.

JNE....I know what you mean...my old unit has sponsored an orphanage in Japan since WW2 by "voluntary" contributions from everyone in the regiment each month....a buck or two or ten...whatever you wanted to give (not to leave out the donations by non-military personnel such as some in Hollywood, etc...).....and every year, some would fly to Hawaii (usually tickets donated by Japan Airlines) to spend a week among us. I loved that part of the job....teaching the youngsters to surf and stuff they'd never get to do without us.....stuff that the People never really hear about.

Mike,

I've read that book and I've seen that movie. That book is about Arnhem. A city close to where I live. About Operation Market Garden where the British fucked up and lost a lot of men. I did like the movie though. Great cast, fine actors! But what is your point? Maybe you've missed it, but I've studied history for seven years. Of course I've read that book and saw the movie. Why are you suggesting the book in the first place? You want to impress with a title? Do you believe I don't read? Do you want to discuss good and bad movies with me? What is it you want? You want to confess a warcrime? Be more clear next time buddy!

PS - Call me names any time you want to Mikey! I don't care about that, so give it your best shot!

Russ and Tim;

If I have any round eyed kid, it is because I ran the chance of, during an every other month four hour pass, before Tet then there were no four hour passes, to have a 100% chance of getting a social alement, your insane.

Some tips on running an ambush. 50% alert in soft areas, 100% alert in hard areas, experience. You have to check in every 10 miniutes, double click on the hand set, sound down during the role call. Never back into a rice paddy and establish grid co-ordances at least 400 meters out and walk in.

Bill

Tim, No they didn't bomb every square meter of south Holland. They bombed what they believed were weapons sites. Sometimes they made mistakes. Shit happens. I think you're pulling my leg Tim. You supposedly being a teacher and living there probably know exactly what places were bombed and how many of your people died better than me. If not, do an internet search.

What, no children?

Then I would say the Vietnamese are damn lucky.

Please stop feeding Tim and Russ. It would appear they have no interest in a dialogue which progesses anywhere useful. Rather, they seem to like to play games for their amusement. Don't let them goad you on. That said; let me feed the animals now too… No, not every person in the military of these United States is a saint, but if you don't believe that our military personnel are among the most disciplined and sincere in the world or for that matter, in history, you are following an agenda and not the facts. Anecdotes like Abu Ghraib are aberrations (yes- it's an incident, not SOP - if you think you can counter this, prove it, don't just TELL me I'm wrong). If you want to talk about civilian casualties, Dutch, what about the 11 million your 'civilized' neighbors herded into camps and exterminated? Some of whom were exported from your country. Not to mention the millions of others who died because the Nazis started a war. It’s funny- but sad: many Europeans learned the wrong lesson from WWII- they thought the lesson to be learned was that war was horrible (True) and therefore to be avoided at all costs (False). How easily they forgot how they got into that war. What they should‘ve learned is that there is evil in the world and one must be careful not to allow it to gain power, or else be ready to go to war to defend the just. If you want to point to the evils of Great Britain and the United States, then I think you'd better stick to Dresden- THAT probably was a war crime, but bombing of mixed civilian/military targets like Berlin were what were necessary to win, and civilian casualties were inevitable with the weapons of the day. . The civilian deaths in places like that rest solely on the shoulders of the Nazis. Likewise Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If you disagree with that, then please don't tell us you studied history- If you understand the culture of Imperial Japan and the fact that without an order from the Emperor to surrender the Japanese people (virtually all of them) were a de facto militia. They were on standing orders to defend the homeland to the death – and a great many would have. Also, most people who bring up Hiroshima and Nagasaki don’t realize that conventional bombs killed far more Japanese than the two nukes. Thank God we’ve spent trillions of dollars to try to make warfare, when necessary, as humane as possible. GPS guided munitions don’t make war easier for us- in fact they may well make it more difficult as it sets a higher standard for the tolerance of civilian casualties, and our ROE in Iraq are a good example of that. If you study history and especially wars- you will realize that one of the greatest marks of civilization is the development of rules for war. Terrorists are regressive in that regard – we are progressive. Think about it.

The man who took the picture is Michael Yon. He is in Mosul.

His blog post about the despair of the major, who's a father, and the dying child is here.

The child had been loved, had been playing with other little kids before a jihadi with a car bomb blew up amongst them.

I hold contempt for those of you on this comment thread whose hearts are so small they cannot hold their tongue long enough for a moment of mourning, who feel it so important to attempt to score rhetorical debate points that they miss the grief of a little girl lost.

Chad, insh'allah, we'll meet in Iraq.

Tim......in "the movie" it WAS NOT CHARLIE SHEEN (Chris) THAT FELL ASLEEP ON HIS GUARD WATCH.....it was the one he passed the guard to..."Junior"...that fell asleep immediately after getting the "guard" from Sheen (which is why Chris says "I didn’t fall asleep; it was Junior.") .....Charlie Sheen only got BLAMED for it (by Junior) and Barnes played it exactly as a Sarge should have. Point being, since you missed it, was that he played a little loosely with his character and his history so that HE swouldn't look bad.....but if the rest of the scene is correct, he's responsible for the death of one of his brothers because in real life....it was HIM that did the sleeping. Since you've never sat in ambush and don't know anything about them......yes, I blame him for falling asleep (in real life) and endangering his entire squad.

What about you, do YOU have a point? I mean, other than passing anti-American propaganda around on the net about American servicemen targetting journalists and generally "ravaging the countrysidside" (to quote a favorite Senator of some here) of any country we're in or have ever been in.

JNE, Your post was very thoughtful, but I have a problem with the oft repeated statement that most Muslims don't subscribe to the type of Islam that the terrorist do. Where, and how often have leaders of so-called peaceloving Muslims come out and condemned their brothers in religion? I can only recall a scant few times. If they are so against what the terrorist are doing in the name of Islam, why don't we hear it more often? Actually, all Iraqis are NOT muslims. Everyone forgets about the christian Iraqis. You say that "progress takes time". For the love of Pete, how many centuries are you willing to give them? I would argue that the "peaceloving" muslims should take the lead in, as you say "routing out and persecuting the hateful aspect". After all, don't they have a vested interest in proving that they are not one and the same? That is, if they really don't support the terrorist. In closing, I want to say , thank you for your service to our country!

Lisa - there are plenty of Muslims out there that separate themselves from the terrorists. Just because you hear a lot more about one that the other doesn't give any indication of the size of each group.

Its not a holy war.

Lisa, thank you. Most of us benefit from never having had witnessed many of the atrocities that are still being witnessed around the world, but there are still living witnesses to a time very different from today. It wasn't that long ago that lynchings of blacks was regularly practiced. It wasn't that long ago that a young Andrew Jackson ordered U.S. Soldiers to skin the flesh from dead indians in order to make leggings and boot straps. Yes, the same Andrew Jackson pictured on our own twenty dollar bill. It wasn't that long ago that we dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It wasn't that long ago when a man could beat his wife bloody and face no recourse for it. Our nation is not free of a violent past. We've come a long way in a short period of time. Other nations could certainly look at the U.S. and find fault here as well. We are probably the largest market in the world for illicit drug trade. I don't have hard numbers, but I'm willing to bet that more than 50% of this nation has partaken in illegal drug use to some extent. Hell, even our own ex-President admitted to using marijuana. How many tens of thousands of people die every years as a direct result of illicit drug use. How many criminal organizations have terrorized entire nations in order to supply drugs to the U.S. market.

The point is that, the United States is not free of a violent and questionable past or present. We have made tremendous strides in many areas over a relatively short period of time. Though they are making progress, the Middle-East has not kept up with us... which often leads the "enlightened" West to criticize the "primitive" Middle-East. The Muslim community has problems that need to be dealt with. There is no question about that. What I don't agree with is generalizing the entire Islamic world by the dispicable actions of a dangerous minority. We need to focus our efforts on the problem, terrorists and terrorist propoganda, without ostricizing those who would be our friends.

Thank you, JNE!

Russ:

The Viet Namese have a thing about blonds, I had a guy named Jensen, from ND, in my squad who was a Nordic Blond, the hookers used to pick at his hair to see if it was real. He never paid and probably has a clan in the central high lands.

Me, I was a reddish blond, didn't meet their exacting standards. So no luck.

Bill

lol Lil Bill the army would probably exceed its recruitment goals if they quit yammering about the whole "honor" and "duty" thing and emphasize the poontang aspect.

Um Yeah:

There is that, lol, I think that the Marines have a lock on the uniform thing though.

Bill

I think that the Marines have a lock on the uniform thing though.

They have the new 8 bit look.

Kind of like pixels.

Marines still teach unarmed combat right?

Army apparently doesnt anymore, saw an Army guy get beat by some lax playing college kid at a party a few weeks ago.

I tried to break it up, but you try to hold back a drunken roid monkey.

JNE and Russ, you miss the point- OF COURSE there have been times when America or Americans have participated in violence or atrocities. Show me any group of humans from Tribal groups on up that hasn't... The point is that America has done more to bring up the level of human rights in the world than anyone in history (with great indebtedness to the predecessors of our own society- who had their flaws as well). We RECOGNIZE our shortcomings, and CHANGE. If you knew anyone who is Muslim, you'd understand how frustrating it is to talk to them about what is wrong with terrorism- they WILL NOT condemn it in absolute terms- they condemn in generalities or they make excuses- but NEVER flat out condemn it- Perhaps Beslan was the ONE exception. I have friends who are Muslim, and it is difficult for me to fathom how they can stick to these positions when I know who they are in thier hearts through the way they live their lives... it is truly sad and dismaying. Oh, and please review my previous post on why Hiroshima was not an atrocity (I'll not say Nagasaki, as it was- it was an atrocity that the military junta of Imperial Japan couldn't wise up even six days after Hiroshima...)

Um Yeah:

I don't know about the new modern Army in the hand to hand thing, ask Sarge, he has a better handle on that.

In my day, oh it sucks to be dated, you won or you had a general brawl, to loose a one on one was thought of as smear on the unit, expecally it was to a Navy guy, Marine, or Air Farce.

Civilans didn't count, most of them fought like girls, observations of my time Stationed NYC.

We were taught hand to hand with the provisio, that if it came to that you had some serious troubles.

Same with the .45, I was an RTO for a while and had to qualify. The DI would go through the nomenclature of