Do the Shiites (majority) think the Sunnis (minority) will stop killing the Shiites just because they gave 'em a few cabinet seats? After centuries of killing and oppressing each other? Are either muslim group going to actually respect the lives of the Kurds? After centuries of killing and oppressing THEM?

Sarge - Exactly. Exactly why we never should have gotten involved in Iraq.

Hey Sarge what are the chances of the Kurds getting their own country? Zero?

Actually matt, it's irrelevant to why we should or should not have gone to Iraq. Irrespective of any actions the US may or may not take, Sunni and Shiite muslims will kill each other because they're stuck in a centuries-old mentality of "OUR way of worshipping Allah is the only right way to worship Allah and we're gonna kill those that worship differently." Most of the world's other religions have gotten away from that mentality through reform.....but not all of 'em.

....and if UY knew anything about the Kurds, if they were given their own country, they would then recommence killing those of other groups of Kurds that are ethnically different.....just like they were doing BEFORE they had the common enemy in the muslim groups of the region.

Sarge - Invading Iraq meant that the Shiite/Sunni/Kurd problem would be on our hands after taking out Saddam. Can you explain why we _shouldn't_ have considered that before invading?

Hows this for rhetorical?

Will we westerners EVER stop obsessing over race? Will we ever stop trying to fit everyone into cookie-cutter molds?

They're all Iraqi's. Most of them don't want war. Most of them want their country to be stable and safe and prosperous. Even most of the minority Sunni lived in fairly hellish conditions under Saddam, they weren't all his direct relatives.

So to answer your questions Sarge,

No, yes, yes.

Will we westerners EVER stop obsessing over race?

Last I checked these Schisms were based on Religion.

That's because your mentally inept. Allow me to enlighten you. Kurdish is an ethnicity, not a system of beliefs.

Kurdish is an ethnicity

I knew that, I was reffering to the Shiaa Sunni split. You were the one who mentioned race.

Last I checked an ethnicity is not a race.

matt....can I explain a "negative" action.....nope, it's an illogical concept. Concerning all of the reasons to go to Iraq or not.....the centuries old rivalries between the 3 Peoples of Iraq under a new leadership/government is not one of them. HOWEVER, the sunnis are now even more murserous than they were before because they just lost their minority rule over the majority and are not very happy with it. THAT is why they are nor targetting sunnis.

...and I believe, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, UY and I agree on something.....sort of. Sorry MJ, there are 3 PEOPLES in Iraq, not according to how you or I feel, but according to how THEY FEEL TOWARDS EACH OTHER.....and you can't gloss over that with the notion of "they're all Iraqis" because the sunnis don't think the same of the shiites and never have....and NEITHER the sunnis nor the shiites have felt the same towards the Kurds....and a change in the "leader" or the style of government will not change those bloody hatreds in MY lifetime.

Ethnicity is not a race? What did you check with, chicken bones? A magic 8 ball?

I know damn well you were referring to the shia/sunni, Um Yeah. What I meant was, I'm sorry I went way over your head by not being anal and redundant, I forget how moronic you can be sometimes and speak above your comprehension.

Sarge - I think you can explain why something shouldn't be done. The conservatives seem to be experts in this sort of thing. (Unless it involves war.)

Yes, there are different cultures, ethnicities, and religions in Iraq. There are different cultures, ethnicities and religions in America and many other countries too. That doesn't mean they run about trying to kill one another. Time will prove me right on this issue.

Time has proven you incorrect on this issue thus far and you're not going to be alive when they stop senselessly murdering each other. These different ethnicities and religions in Iraq have been killing each other for centuries and they're gonna continue to do so until we're long dead. Of COURSE over time it will change (time in a large sense...as in, NEXT century...or the one after that)....but it's not going to be any time in the near future. So long as their #1 identifier is their brand of their religion, they will kill each other because of it. They are not "Iraqis", they are sunni muslims, shiite muslims and Kurds....3 ethnicities in a large-scale. That's how THEY see each other, no matter how much you may want them to be a melting pot of any kind.

...and going over the comments again, I must clear a technicality up......Kurdish is a race (genetically different from other Arabic groups) and the Kurd's ethnicity is based on that race, in addition to the Kurdish culture. Ethnicity is not a race, but a race can be an ethnicity, as can national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background differences.

....and matt, the notion of us actually taking into consideration the murderous 3 groups of Iraq is ludicrous, concerning the debate of "should we go or not." The fact that these 3 groups kill each other because of their differences is a moot point in the discussion to go to war or not......BECAUSE IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE NATIONAL INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

....and the sunni/shiite/kurdish problem is not "on our hands"....it's on the hands of the 3 groups and the new Iraqi government.....and before that, according to the news reports of the last 2 years......the sunnis and shiites were united against their common enemy, American forces, in some sort of Iraqi insurgency......yeah, right.

Sarge - But now you know what I'm going to say again....there was never sufficient evidence to show that US security was threatened by Iraq.

.BECAUSE IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OR THE NATIONAL INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

The whole entire war was irrelevant to the security of our country.

National Interests can count if you mean oil I guess.

Sarge, I see vast amounts of people saying that is a load of crap. That the average Iraqi cannot for the life of him understand why these westerners are so obsessed with race, and they all consider themselves to be primarily Iraqi's, and THEN sunni's or kurds or whatever. The divisions come not so much from Iraq, but from western coverage of Iraq being so obsessed with the divisions.

And if there society becomes truly democratic it will put a swift end to any violence between it's demographics. ESPECIALLY considering having a bunch of foreign syrians blowing up street corners and schoolbusses tends to unite people in a common threat.

Yes, UY...oil is a national interest for the United States.....as is stability in the region, as are those WMD that Billy Clinton, John Kerry, Madeline Albright, Sandy Berger, Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, Nancy Pelosi, Al Gore, Fat Teddy "Mary Jo" Kennedy, Robert Byrd, Jay Rockefeller, Hillary Clinton, and Bob Graham told me were there over the past 7 years.......and LOOOOOOOOOOOONG before (2 years before) Bush et al told me about 'em. WMD in the hands of Saddam Hussein is very much something that is in the interests and security of the United States.

.....but what the fuck do YOU know about security sammich-boy-wannabe-ACLU-child?

Hmm, UY, So it's the old 'war for oil' thing? Please, have you looked at gas prices lately? Starting a war in an oil producing region is no way to lower or stabilize oil prices, and since we don't appear to be stealing the Iraqi oil, I fail to see how it was a war for oil. We could've played ball with Saddam like the UN did, THEN you could've been critical of us and our thirst for oil...

as is stability in the region,

So how would invading another country stabilize it?

.....but what the fuck do YOU know about security sammich-boy-wannabe-ACLU-child?

More then you apparently you gutless ninny.

Doug - I believe we invaded Iraq to stabilize it just like we invaded to lower oil prices - i.e. we invaded and the opposite of what we expected happened.

Remember when we were supposed to be greeted with open arms?

I thought we were way past these kind of discussions, but here we go... Whether or not Saddam had anything (even tangentially) to do with 9-11, he would've had to have been a total idiot not to get ideas... and it's pretty clear, given the attempt on Bush 41, that he still wanted to get back at us. Leaving him in power would've been a death sentence to many Americans. Matt, you go on thinking the administration is as stupid as you'd like to believe- that's how we won the election. Funny how ironic it is that you criticize the administration for underestimating the enemy, when that's exactly what you do! Can you find me a quote of someone at the Pentagon or White House saying we'd be greeted with open arms? People in Iraq had for the last three decades watched what they said, made sure they publicly sided with whoever held their life in thier hands (Saddam and family) and those lessons were not dropped overnight. Some of the open arms you did see were probably not so sincere- Likewise, many held back fearing that if the US bugged out, and the baathists were back in power, they didn't want to be on camera greeting the invading US troops, and/or destroying an image of Saddam. I suppose you still think we're failing in Iraq? You really don't realize how history is being made by the new Government? By the way, I'm surprised you haven't brought up the WMD issue yet. You know, Bush lied to get us into the war, then was too stupid to plant weapons in the sand....That should cover all the bases, no?

Can you find me a quote of someone at the Pentagon or White House saying we'd be greeted with open arms?

"We will be greeted as liberators." - Darth Cheney

Doug STFU and get back to doing whatever job you do.

Source please-context is everything. Being greeted as liberators can mean a great many things, differing from "open arms" which I think most of us envision the Parisians after the Nazis were driven out...oh, and it's so nice to have civilized debate... if this is how you feel about what others say, why bother reading and replying?

There are actually FOUR groups of people in Iraq. It is easy to overlook the christian Iraqis as they are hardly ever mentioned in the MSM. Though many have left Iraq recently, there are still some there. I recall hearing one guy talking about his fears about the new government, and how his people would be represented. I don't remember his name. But he was very worrried that the christian Iraqis would be forgotten, sounds like he was right.

No, there actually is 1 christian in the new government. 1 may be a lonely number, but to my knowledge they aren't a huge demographic, and still, they have some representation. There are other groups in Iraq as well, other religions and other ethnicities beyond the main 3. Most of the statistics tend to show Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd adding up to 100%, but the 3 do not make up 100% of the population.

There is also a notable amount of secularists and atheists, and also people who hold their particular brand of, shall we say, Sunni Islam, with all the seriousness of a catholic who goes to church on good friday and christmas, and won't step near one the rest of the year. But they are lumped into those same statistics.

"Gutless ninny"....yeah, that's why I RE-enlisted in the INFANTRY (as in, not a REMF) to complete my 8 years....because I was "gutless." Whereas, you sleep under the blanket of security that OTHER PEOPLE provide for you because you would never have the balls to actually put on a uniform, and pick up a gun for your country....even in peace-time. Drills would chew you until you boloed out.....they don't like pussies like you to get any further than the 5th week and would ensure that they rode you until you cried your way back to NY. You know NOTHING about what it takes to provide security for the country that you would never defend with anything but a whole lotta Absurdistan talk on an internet site. Sleep tight while others do the work for you.

Sarge I dont mean to diss your service but quite frankly I dont give a shit, I grew up with many many people who did much more dangerous terms of service then Bosnia where there wasnt a single combat death.

I call you gutless because you dont have the balls to quesiton your masters and learn out the plain truth for yourself you get lied around because easy lies better to you then the truth.

Spew, spew, spew....where did YOU serve, other than the sammich shop? You think you know my service, but I don't recall posting my DD-214 here, so you know SHIT about it?

....and you are nothing but a pussy, living off of OTHER PEOPLE'S service. IT doesn't matter what other people do, you're a pussy for not doing it your damned self and then using THEM to bolster your non-points. Typical of your ilk.....buncha pussies that don't have the balls.

I just find it funny that you and assorted rightards go after Kerry for talking about his service.

Then every chance you get you say about how special it makes you.

D'uh.....I'm not running for PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES....dipshit. I'm not asking 300 million people to trust me with their country.

How about bringing up every chance that YOU have used the service of those around you to attempt to further your non-arguments?