I'm sympathetic toward school officials having the right to not allow shirts/buttons that would disrupt the school day or otherwise offend people.

In this case, the girl is not expressing anything profane or hateful. She should absolutely be able to wear the button. I disagree with the woman who said it would be different if a guy wore a similar button (we can only assume it would read "i love my penis).

I'm sure it would cause a stir and kids would laugh, but if the teachers/administration didn't make a big deal out of it, that would be short-lived.

Steve, you really think it's idiocy for this girl to wear this button? The real idiocy is that anyone cares that she is.

I agree with Tom that there is nothing wrong going on here. That being said, I do find it a bit odd. What are we going to see next, "I love my furry balls"?

I have no problem either and I would say there's nothing wrong with an "I (heart) my penis" badge either.

Generally I think the feminist movement can take itself a little too seriously sometimes and I think the Vagina Monologues are quite a good antidote to this. I wouldn't say a "I (heart) my vagina" badge is the best way to combat male violence against women and think this is a little pompous.

I think there is definitely a debate to be had along the same kind of lines as feminism about the role of men in society and that men shy away from such discussions as women did in the past.

Look away for the next bit if you are offended by strong language - re the vagina being seen as something negative I think there is a point here. I've already been called wandering_clit as an insult by RR which I thought was a little odd since he doesn't seem to like gays or women's genitals which leaves him in a bit of a sad position as far as sex goes. Also the use of the words for genitals being used as swear words seems to reflect a rather odd attitude today and this can be seen particularly in the use of the word "cunt". This word didn't use to be nearly as offensive as it is today and in fact there used to be a street in London called "Cuntgrope Alley" - times change and I don't pretend to know why this word has migrated in the strength of its meaning, but there we go.

Back to Carrie Rethlefsen. I must admit if I were in her school I would be tempted to mischief. I quite fancy the idea of wearing a badge saying "I don't (heart) Carrie's vagina" or better how about "I'm indifferent to Carries vagina" or even "I support Carrie's vagina!". Carrie opened up her vagina to this debate (I can't stop myself now I'm afraid) and if you have free speech why aren't others allowed comment. If you wanted to strike out on your own why not "I'm really rather fond of my elbows".

I'm sorry, but I agree that she should be able to wear this badge. The idea of a whole school wearing badges about the bits of there bodies and their opinions of them seems far too funny not to be allowed.

I'd like to close this post by saying thank you to my feet. They have stood by me for many years now and have rarely been thanked for the tasks they have undertaken. Feet of the world rise up from your downtrodden state and take over - you have nothing to lose but your soles!

You fancy such an idea? I think this is ridiculous. Such phrases are not appropriate. I was told I had to turn my t-shirt inside out, because it was a fishing t-shirt, with a small mouth bass on the front that said "KISS MY BASS!".

God help us as soon as we have a bunch of smartass young me's running around wearing buttons that say "I LOVE YOUR VAGINA TOO!". It's simply not appropriate, and you know damn well what the kids will be giggly, joking and insinuating, but this will give them something to hide behind and the school will have to permit behavior and talk and clothing that certainly is not acceptable and probably would be considered sexual harrassment under a different circumstance.

It's funny because, brit, you don't have a daughter who comes home from school upset because all the boys are suddenly wearing buttons that say "I LOVE YOUR VAGINA" or "FIGHT TO SAVE BREASTS", and they SAY it's about breast cancer or whatever, but you know damn well what they're thinking about when they're oggling the girls and laughing and grinning at each others buttons.

On another note, I think anyone with such a screwy view of one of their own bodyparts probably has some issues that are best dealt with, and making a whole silly button situation isn't going to help this girl with the strange fact that she thinks people hate her reproductive organ.

According to the story, the girl had been wearing the button to school for two weeks without incident. It was only when news crew showed up to interview her that the school knew she was wearing the button and told her to remove it.

I'm not going to come down on the school for making her remove the button. Their first priority is to have an atmosphere condusive to learning -- not upholding someone's right to free speech. I do think she should be allowed to wear it, but there is sometimes a fine line between appropriate and inappropriate material, and I think it's unfair to saddle the school with the responsibility to discriminate between the two without allowing it to err on the side of caution.

I do think Steve and MJ are WAY out of line by commenting on this girl's pyschological make-up and/or attacking her as a feminazi. Relax guys. It's just a button that says vagina.

Hi MJ,

I don't have too much time, but the quick answer to your post is that I would find it seriously unfunny if kids started wearing badges commenting on other peoples body parts - that would be pretty vicious bullying.

This girl has raised this debate and if she believes in freedom of speech then others are now allowed to comment. Of course you're right I'm certain that others have made all sorts of comments to her already she was after all told to take the badge off after a month. If she's old enough to go to the Vagina Monologues and old enough to decide to wear this badge she's old enough to take the flak. When we are young making mistakes is a key part of learning and I think she's made one, she may or may not have learnt.

You said

It's funny because, brit, you don't have a daughter who comes home from school upset because all the boys are suddenly wearing buttons that say "I LOVE YOUR VAGINA" or "FIGHT TO SAVE BREASTS", and they SAY it's about breast cancer or whatever, but you know damn well what they're thinking about when they're oggling the girls and laughing and grinning at each others buttons.

Well no I'd fight damn hard to protect the girls who was being bullied in this way. But Carrie chose to wear her badge and chose to raise this issue.

I realise it's just a button that says vagina. But if this girl needs to wear buttons that bare slogans about her reproductive organs in order to feel comfortable about her own sexuality, I would not deem her to be healthy in that regard.

Many people seem to display a similar desire the flaunt their sexuality in public. I am not sure why, if it is voyeurism or what I honestly do not know. But I beleive well-balanced people are capable of operating in public indefinetly without ever mentioning their sexual practices or even sexual organs, or certainly without defining themselves by such practices and organs. Such often happens amongst certain subcultures, for example, homosexuals. What you do for an orgasm is nobodies business but yours, but more and more we seem to find a trend that pushes people to define their whole existince, the way they talk, the way they walk, the way they dress, whom they socialise with and where, all determined essentially by what they do in the bedroom. I do not understand at all, the need of said people to MAKE what they do in private other people's business. In some situations it may be voyeurism, in some others, I am sure there are some, it is probably a case of societal guilt over their actions, for which they must compensate by seeking the approval of others to bolster their beleif that such actions are nothing to feel guilty over. I'm sure theres other causes as well, but none of these would I describe as a well adjusted and good pattern to exhibit.

In some ways (not all, but in some regards, and I beleive this particular regard) the feminist movement fits into this pattern. There seems to be some underlying desire to shove your vagina in people's faces. It's all well and good that she loves her vagina..or, maybe it isn't. Is it? I sure as hell wouldn't say I loved my penis. I wouldn't want it to fall off, but it is just a member of my body. It is no different then my arm. I wouldn't want to be without an arm, but do I have any particular fondness of it? IS it healthy to put such importance on a sexual organ, above normal organs like, say, a spleen? Is it good to over-emphasis sex in such ways?

But that's fine if she loves her vagina. Why does she feel the need to LITERALLY wear it on her sleeve? Why must others know that she loves her vagina, what business was her vagina of theres (before she made it a matter of public discourse)? Was someone telling her her vagina was evil? Did she actually beleive it (or beleives someone might beleive it) and hence feels that she must fight back against these largely ficticious people who beleive vaginas are the gates of the abyss?

Say what you will of my views, they are not 'politically correct' and many would label me a homophobe or a 'male oppressor' for daring to wonder such things. But I find them to be legitimate questions. Certainly this girl is no Ed Gene, I do not expect her to start killing people and eating thier livers and wearing their labias as earrings. She could be alot mentally unhealthy-er, so to speak. It is said ALL people, even sane and rational ones, do still display symptoms of various mental disorders, to smaller degrees, depending on the person, his mood, and what he may have ate for lunch. But I do wonder what is the motivation behind such behavior, and whether or not, despite the PC Police's opinion, such behavior really can be considered healthy and well balanced.

By the way Brit, in a sense, I would agree with you....this girl is a SENIOR. At that age, these 'kids' really are probably old enough to wear such buttons and discuss such things and take the associated flak. I would agree with you that most people, at a senior level, this really isn't an issue, they are (some of them) legal adults. But at least here in america, you should not that this is a SCHOOL, and in the US, SENIORS go to the same school (highschool) as freshmen. They wonder the same halls, sit sometimes in the same classrooms, or the same lunch tables, ect ect ect. It's all well and good that the 17 and 18 year old seniors can handle a good deal fo sexual antics that they will be exposed to in college in a year anyway, but if it is allowed for any reason, you are exposing the 12 and 13 year old freshmen to it to!

A 12 year old girl who may or may not even hit puberty quite yet, might have a tougher time understanding such a button, and the associated 'flak' the girl receives. Hell, it is possible, after seeing this senior receive such treatment for wearing said button, she may start beleiving vaginas are somehow dirty or evil.

"I realise it's just a button that says vagina. But if this girl needs to wear buttons that bare slogans about her reproductive organs in order to feel comfortable about her own sexuality, I would not deem her to be healthy in that regard."

No where in the article does is infer that she needed to wear the button to "feel comfortable" about her sexuality.

She states that the taboo of talking about a woman's sexuality helps create an atmosphere where abuse against women is more permisable. Now, that's certainly open for debate, but I see no evidence to support your claim that she is not comfortable with her sexuality.

This girl wore this button to get a reaction and start a dialogue, but it's one of the unfortunate side-effects of the Internet age that MJ is questioning her mental health -- someone he's never met -- because she donned a button.

I mean, MJ, you say one of the reasons that this girl shouldn't wear this button is because guys will be tempted to taunt her about it, THEN you turn around and say she has an unhealthy view of her sexuality -- even though you don't know her. And you say nothing when Steve sits her and calls her a feminazi.

think any HS guy would wear a button that says "I (heart) my penis?"

don't expect much "penis pride" in the near future...

There are two issues here and I think it important to keep them seperate. You say tom that she did this to start a dialogue, but this is an inappropriate place for such dialogues. But that is the 2nd issue, as far as her mental state goes..

Yes, I've never met her. I don't know why she's doing it, (and I beleive I said as much) but I do WONDER why she is doing it, and my hypothesis (which I would need to meet her to test) is that she's not what I would deem a person with a balanced and healthy idea of sex.

You say she's done this to start a dialogue about the abuse of women, but I don't know of any serious group within our culture that advocates the abuse of women. You don't need to shock people into condemning such things. There simply isn't a need there. I don't buy that, man, I just don't.

It would make about as much sense as me wearing a red armband with a swastika on it, for the purpose of drawing reactions and 'starting a dialogue' about the evils of genocide. I really don't see what she thinks she's acomplishing short of making people uncomfortable.

You see no evidence that she's got an unhealthy perspective, and nor do I! That's why it's a hypothesis and not a theory or declared fact. I WONDER about it.

Case in point, though. There is no taboo about talking about womens sexuality. At least, no more so then talking about ANY sexuality. The taboo part is wearing things that make reference to sexual body parts in an environment dedicated to trying to teach overly-hormonal 13 year olds about geometry. The fact that she even views the situation in such an embellished way leads to me to beleive she's not percieving the reality of the situation clearly.

Honestly, what sort of abuse are we talking about? Seriously? Physical abuse? WTF does talk about vaginas have to do with striking someone in the head? If women were allowed to...I don't even know here. If male prostitutes were more popular and women weren't ashamed of casual sex, this girl beleives that many a sex-starved housewife would not tolerate abusive behavior anymore? I'm stretching for a link her. I think it is quite possible this girl has a very confused view of issues a vagina might even have a role to play in.

Did a man at Abu Ghraib have panties shoved on his head because he was uncomfortable with his penis? That she might think open dialogue about a vagina, or a testicle, or a nipple, would somehow lead us all to a better understanding between the sexes tells me she is putting way too much significance on the act of physical sex and it's associated parts, which I would call unhealthy.

As far as steve saying she was a feminist, neither he nor I nor you can say that with any degree of certainty, you are correct. But as a hypothesis, I beleive his is one worthy of further contemplation. Like it or not, admit it or not, this act does display the same sorts of logic and tendencies and other similiarities to the actions of radical feminist movements. She may be a feminist, or she may not be, will such a theory continue to explain her actions, or will it be found wanting? That's something neither of can know until we look, but it's not a bad place to start looking for a reason behind such behavior, and theres a damn good chance he's right. If he is, then my thesis is wrong. She is NOT mentally unhealthy. She has merely been indoctrinated by people who were.

But THIS IS a dialogue. This is the kind of dialouge you get when you walk around saying "I love my vagina". What did you think you were going to get? As I said, the best way to start a discussion about the halocaust is NOT to dress up like hitler for halloween.....

I'm NOT saying that what she did was in any way related to nazism. I'm using the analogy, not to point out similarities, to press the point that using 'shock' isn't the way to start a reasonable rational dialogue, but a frothing argument. At best. At worst, it isn't done for shock value at all, but as an excuse to profess a certain ideology with an attempt to duck the associated ill repute.

Her behaviour, WHOLEY not understood by me, is strikingly similar to the behavour of people we know a great deal more about (The feminists which steve speaks of). We can only speculate, but the clear speculation here is that there are limited reasons for this sort of action that are apparent. So I have no idea why she wants to wear a button that says I LOVE MY VAGINA on it. I can only speculate, and such is my speculation. If such speculation was not her intent, then that only furthers my point that this was not a rational or well-thought act, because the desired outcome of it turns out to be completely detached and remote from reality. The question now becomes is this a single mistake? I think not, because she apparently stonewalls the issue, there is no mea culpa. This seems to be a crictical flaw in her logic, seperating what she percieves will happen from what happens in reality, and my question becomes one of finding what the flaw is.

I've thought of a very good example. If I walked into the room, and you saw my wearing a t-shirt that said "I am NOT an alchoholic!"

The first thought in your head would be, now this is a man that has a healthy, normal association with alchohol!

No.

Although one cannot say for certain, it becomes a reasonably fair guess that wearing such a shirt and putting such a heavy meaning on it that I will not remove it should it create an argument, I have an UNhealthy association with alchohol, to whatever degree. Most people have a fairly NEUTRAL association with alchohol. They are neither alchoholics, nor are they alchophobic so to speak. But if I vehemently press that I am NOT the former, seemingly randomly and without provocation, the logical conclusion is that I am EITHER the former and I'm lying because I'm embarassed, or I'm the latter, who is just thinking WAY TOO MUCH about the former.

A vagina is certainly nothing to be ashamed of, nor a penis. Anyone who was ashamed of either I would say did not have a healthy normal outlook. Likewise however, you can swing to the other end of the pendulum. Anyone who proffesses such pride in one's vagina or penis, I also do not think is particularly well balanced. Either they're playing head games, trying to convince themselves (by convincing you first) that they're not ashamed of their vagina, or they have an absurd obsession with it, or an absurd fear of either the former or the later. Any of these would not be good things. God forbid someone might just have a vagina and not think too much about it. Sort of like having a liver, or an appendix...I certainly don't spend all day thinking about my penis, and I wouldn't consider myself well off if I did. There's more to life then sex, but the trend she displays, is one displayed by others who have a habit of overemphasising sex in an extreme and ridiculous way.

Well, MJ, it's my opinion that it's immature and idiotic for two grown men to sit on a Web site and "speculate" that a teenage girl has an unhealthy view of her sexuality because she wears a button -- even though she gives an explicit reason for wearing which would indicate that she is comfortable with her sexuality.

And steve called her a femiNAZI. There was hate in his words. Then you jump on and question her mental health, even though you admit you have no proof OR evidence to support your claims.

That's why I say this is an unfortunate side effect of the Internet. You certainly have the right to say whatever you want, but it doesn't mean you should.

This is a teenage girl, who may not have a good point about causes of sexual abuse, but at least she is trying to understand them address them. Now you and Steve jump on and project all your negative thoughts about feminism onto her... both questioning her mental health and steve calling her a femiNAZI. I just don't think that's productive or responsible.

MJ, I know what you're trying to say -- the fact that she feels the need to tell everyone one that she "loves her vagina" means she is overcompensating for insecurities about her own sexuality.

I mean, that's dime-store psychology -- especially in light of a perfectly reasonable explanation that she gave as to why she is wearing the button. You may disagree with her reasoning that wearing the button will help in shedding light on the problem of sexual abuse, but attacking her mental health and calling her names is irresponsible and not really addressing the issue she is trying to bring up. As adults, I think we need to her make her point and explain herself without attacking her -- especially when she has not lashed out against anyone -- even the school. She seems to be handling this whole situation very maturely. Something I don't think that can be be said of you and Steve.

What!! No women commenting today?

This is solid gold. Is it; "it's fun to pick on the ACLU, or that a vagina makes you feel uncomfortable" that motivates you to write this? Go see the "Vagina Monologues" it will change your outlook on life. Maybe front row seats to "Jody's Body" would change your perspective.

Did it ever occur to you that women being more aware may reduce or prevent the abduction, rape, and killing of little girls. Maybe Carrie has a little sister and she's getting a clear message from Sis. There seems to be some confusion about when and where it's appropriate to talk about sex or sex education. When I last heard Lynn Cheney she stated that republicans didn't want the Department of Ed. involved in sex education at school.

The ACLU stands up for the rights of all American citizens, including Oliver North and Rush Limbaugh.

""So in this leftist’s twisted mind, plastering the word “vagina” all over a high school is cool but the word “penis” is a different story? And am I the only one who thinks this woman has a complex about her vagina? I don’t ever remember there being a “nasty, dirty” connotation connected with this female body part but, just like a penis, there are some places where you talk about a vagina and some places you DON’T talk about a vagina. And, just like the aforementioned male organ, talk about vaginas in high school should be confined to sex ed classes.""

The next time radical red refers to someone on this site as "cunt," I would like you to re-read your comments.

I think it would appropriate to wear the pin if she went to an all girl school, but she goes to a school where about half the students don't have vaginas, and she appears to be rubbing it in their faces.

Ha!!

If we questioned the mental health of people who we thought didn't make total sense in their late teens then I'm pretty sure not many of us would be allowed out on our own again.

No-one has yet said the words vagina is ok but the word penis isn't other than the maker of the badge who isn't exactly a representative sample.

I don't mind people defending her rights but I think that if she wants to say this sort of thing she is letting herself open for comments back - all of those won't all be agreeable. I don't really see how wearing this badge helps, but so what I'm not wearing the badge. She has probably raised this subject as a discussion topic far more than any of us have with their points of interest - which given the media knew about her and the school didn't was probably part of her intension.

I agree with a number of things feminists believe but think the biggest advance in understanding in this area will come when men start analysing what their role has been in society without including women in the analysis for a few years. Unfortunately I don't see this happening too soon. I know one book on this subject is "Iron John" I haven't read it myself so can't say if it's good or not but it's probably not a bad starting place.

Carrie seems to have been quite brave (I wouldn't have volunteered for this abuse or attention at her age) and quite effective - but I don't think she makes a great point.

I'd go with a combination of the first two posts

Steve, you really think it's idiocy for this girl to wear this button? The real idiocy is that anyone cares that she is.

and

That being said, I do find it a bit odd. What are we going to see next, "I love my furry balls"?

While everyone here seems content to discuss all the high minded issues involved here, we seem to have lost sight of the context here: High School.

High School is very very boring. Terribly boring. Even painful at times. Anything to break the tedium is cherished. This girl discovered that "vagina" is a great word to break the tedium.

VAGINA!

See? I bet some of you even giggled a bit.

Now she's managed to get national attention over her use of the word "vagina" - thats only more fun. Vagina vagina vagina!

Soon, this fad will fade like all others. Yet I am an idealist and hope this girl's heart of her vagina will last through the ages.

Hi mattk,

In the Vagina Monologues they also chant the word, but with the audience and they use a different word.

Yes breaking the tedium is a delight at school and I'm sure many of this schools kids have enjoyed the diversion. They've probably learnt a fair bit on this particular subject and some have had a few laughs.

Russ: The fact that the ACLU supported Rush Limbaugh and Ollie North is admirable, but with all due respect (to you, not the ACLU) they didn't need the support of the ACLU. And for every time they have stood up the right to privacy regarding a private citizen's medical records (something Bill Clinton apparently appreciated and had the benefit of as president) you can point to 1000 or better times when they go to bat for little girls who want to express their pride in their vaginas in school or some other such rot. They are worthless.

Steve, For your homework tonight, tie Ollie, the 5th amendment and the ACLU together. It makes for a good story. Give it your best shot.

Do you have any idea the life you lead should be expressed in gratitude toward the ACLU. The problem I see, is that they are not biased in who they go to bat for, and this is something you don't understand. The life you lead, as in all you take for granted. Your liberties that you take as a rite of passage, and I ask; would you be willing to give up all the ACLU has fought for. Only when it happens to you will you understand.

Yes, Ollie did need the ACLU, because he took the 5th instead of letting Ronnie fall. Maybe Ollie would have done better if he had worn a "I Love My Penis" button.

PS If the Ollie story is to tough, write a memorable piece of rot on Tom Delay.

I know that Rush didn't seek out the ACLU, he didn't have to because they were there for him. One more reason is that cases were fought and won by the ACLU that protected his rights before he became a drug addict.

Vell, Steve ya never do stop to amaze me. Da matter dat gots yer dander up vas cause dis take place in da middle ah Gods country. Over der in Menneeesooooota, day don't lik dem explicit bioldge bodee part expressd.

Dem Winona Menneesoootans done got a vee bit liberal, don't ya know! Vait till Sven here bout dis. No, da don't expell da gurls too!!

Good job BSing Russ. Now explain to me exactly how the ACLU supporting Ollie North helped him at all.

So Steve, I'm wondering, does it make you feel bigger, smarter and/or important, taking pot shots from your desk in Iowa at a high school girl from Winona, MN???

In case you forgot what you wrote, here is a sampling:

"I’d have to take issue with this little newbie pubie’s view that advertising the fact that you have a vagina and you’re proud of it makes a statement that needs to be made in the corridors of the local high school. But as we all know, behind the delusions of an impressionable little feminazi spawn’s brain there just has to be a full-fledged feminazi."

It's good to know this country has men in it that feel no shame in slamming a teenage girl for trying to bring attention to the problem of sexual abuse (misguided or not).

I'm with Tom on this one, I admire her moxie. Whether she's right or wrong, at least she's trying to articulate her beliefs and incite some discussion ... I know she can't measure up to your intellect and worldliness Steve, but she IS only a Senior in High School, so maybe you can cut her a little slack. MOST kids in High School think they have something important to say, or some grand statement to make, or even unrealistic ideas that they can look back on and either laugh (or cry) or say they could have done differently. So the fuck what ? At least she's trying to do/say something, and not being a useless slack jawed pedestrian. Anyways, Kudos to you Steve Bowers, for being willing to go head to head with the spirit, ideals and intellect of a 17 year old girl. You're a real peach. Here's an idea: Maybe you can challenge her to an arm wrestling match too. You da man.

Well said Tom and TRF.

I wonder how many times she has been incited to discuss Steve's favourite topics because of his activities - whereas she at 17 has already drawn his attention to her favourite subject on at least one occasion. The longer this thread goes on the more I'm liking her style. I wonder how many kids who saw her badge the first day and laughed then saw it the second and third and so on and thought deeper and deeper on the subject.

I noticed the feminazi term too when I read this plus some other needless language. I don't expect you to change your ways Steve, but I too would like to register my disappointment in your relating a 17 year old girl to a group of profoundly unpleasant people who murdered millions.

Ummm....none? You have no concept of 17 year olds do you?

"Thought deeply" about what? It's a button that says 'vagina'. If this makes you 'think deeply', then you're either being melodramatic, or you put WAY to much significance on a vagina, or what you call 'deep' is what I would refer to as 'slightly damp'.

No offense to you brit, I do not think you are stupid.

MJ, this girl is trying to make the word vagina less taboo in hopes that it will make women feel more comfortable in talking about a sexual assault. She's trying to get past the knee-jerk juvenile reaction to the word that many high school boys have... and perhaps more importantly, show other girls that can say/display that word, be laughed at, and still "live."

It's the juvenile reaction to the word vagina that she's trying to get past. You and Steve have said "school is just not the place for that word" or something along those lines.

Her point in doing this is trying to de-stigmatize the word and in the process hopefully make women more comfortable talking about their body, most notably in cases of sexual assault. It's an empowerment thing.

Now, i don't know if this is an effective way of doing it, but I don't think she should be attacked for doing it.

I mean, this girl gets attacked as a femiNAZI and a wacko by you and steve, for wearing a button that says 'I love my Vagina.'

Is it possible that this kind of reaction makes teenager girls more insecure about themselves?

The main point you guys make is that there's something wrong if you have to display the words "i love my vagina" to the world. And you guys are right, there's something wrong when a teenager girl thinks girls are not reporting sexual assaults because they are afraid to talk about themselves in that kind of way -- or just bring up the subject of sex period. She IS overcompensating.

Tom, you can't fight human nature. It isn't just 'vagina' that juvenile boys laugh at, 'penis', 'pubes', 'harry asscrack' or any number of others that will cause them to laugh. You see, this is why they are called 'juvenile', because they behave in a 'juvenile' fasion. While we are at it, why don't we do something to get those lazy worthless 7 year olds to stop watching cartoons and get a damn job.

This is PRECISELY why high schools are not the appropriate place for such things.

Apart from that, there is no 'stigma' around the word amongst adults, save that most adults do not deem it appropriate to speak unduely about sexual organs, of either variety.

She's not talking about her vagina in a case of sexual assualt (or even a private, or for that matter, adult manner.) She's wondering around the streets with a button that says vagina on it. ACtually, she's wandering around a SCHOOL.

If her idea of removing the stigma for the word means that it should be used in passing conversations amongst freshmen as a norm, then I would say Steve's observation is all the more acute.

Now Tom, I understand what you are saying, and I think you understand what I'm saying. But I'm not attacking her.

If it is her wish to start conversation, that is what this is. She's suceeded. We're having a conversation. We're thinking about things. I'm not attacking her, I bear no ill will toward her. But the subject is presented, and now I offer my viewpoint. This is what a discussion is. Don't start a discussion if you don't want to hear anyone disagree with you, that's what monologues are for.

The subject has come up, and I happen to beleive that someone who walks around with a button saying "MY PENIS'S NAME IS FRED" does not have their head on quite straight when it comes to sex, and being off the mark themselves, it's doubtful their methodology is going to help anyone else.

Seperate and apart from this, there are venues for certain discussions. We've allready talked about the juvenile aspect often displayed by juveniles, go figgure. There's 12 and 13 year olds in that school as well as 17 and 18 year olds. 18 year olds can hack it, this is a legitimate thing to discuss in COLLEGE where you've got 17-25 year olds. But not in a high school. Our 13 year olds need to spend more time reading classic literature and learning geometry, and less time discussing their fondness for their sexual organs.

"This is PRECISELY why high schools are not the appropriate place for such things."

I had a sex ed course (granted, very rudimentary) in the 5th grade where my teacher used the words vagina and penis repeatedly. Yes, we giggled, but the teacher let us and kept control of the class.

I also had a sex ed class in high school (both of these schools were catholic institutions, btw), and these words were again used. This time, there were very few people who giggled at stuff, and if they did, it was early in the class.

Saying high school is not the right place to talk about sex is rediculous. Sex is talked about in high school ALL THE TIME -- both among students and among teacher and in the classroom setting. I really don't see how her button would disrupt things. Brit made a good point that at first people may have giggled, but after a while, I'm sure the novelty wore off.

The word vagina is not profane, it's not slang and it's not used as a derrogetory term. Why shouldn't she be able to wear a button that has that word on it?

The fact that you and Steve don't think she should be able to is bolstering her point, i think.

Tom, you were in a class. There was in fact, a teacher there to as you yourself say "kept (keep) control of the class". Are we now trusting a 17 year old student who wears a button that says "I LOVE MY VAGINA" to monitor a controlled discussion on the topic amongst the freshmen she passes in the hallway?

It is not a dirty word, but it is an inappropriate topic for 12 and 13 year old children to be engauged in without parental consent or any sort of supervision whatsoever. Now, don't mistake me, I know damn well that it happens anyway. 13 year olds talk about what they will talk about, and it most likely WILL be vaginas. But that is completely different from expecting a school to allow or promote such antics when it is within their means and duty to do otherwise.

If I wore a button that said "Please carress my penis"...That also has no slang, curse words, or derogatory words in it. Not appropriate.

Steve, Tell me that you don't really understand what part the ACLU played in the "Iran-Conrta Ollie North" trial.

I know it's off topic, or is it? Is this about a seventeen year old senior in high school or picking on the ACLU.

Just a simple yes or no will do.

Either will do.

I Love My Vagina, and Please Caress my Penis are completely differrent comments. Why the need to twist this so that it's wrong or portrayed as nasty.

Kerry wrote about "What Women Want" a few weeks ago. There wasn't a lot of comment there because as it's very clear here, Men Don't CARE!

If you allow Steve to abuse this girl, (young woman) you are no better than he. Show her some respect. She has stated why she wore the button. Allow her to speak out about abused women. She seems to be intellegent and for seventeen, it seems that she can hold her own in conversation.

Why are women abused? If you read your comments you will find the answer.

Steve, Tell me that you don't really understand what part the ACLU played in the "Iran-Conrta Ollie North" trial.

Predictably Rusty jumps out of his very shallow end of the gene pool to offer yet another idiotic non-sequitor.

Hey Rusty, I (and my whole crew) love your Mom's vagina!

Ignorant blather. First of all, my comments are not the reason women are abused. If you beleive such drivel...well, THAT is probably the reason women are abused. Because idiots like yourself think the problem is that too many people are allowed to have opinions. Most likely, that's what the wifebeaters think too.

Even "please caress my penis" is not a dirty phrase in and of itself. It all depends on the context with which it is used. I'd wager 80% of the public would have absolutely nothing to say about a husband saying that to his wife in their bedroom, but if a 40 year old man said that to a 7 year old girl, 80% of the public would want him incarcerated for 20 years. It's all about the context with which it is used.

Neither phrase (As Tom pointed out with the first) has any slang or curse words or derogatory terms in it. That doesn't mean anything however. Something that is not dirty in one setting, becomes dirty in another setting. That is what I was trying to illustrate.

Talking about vaginas is not bad, in and of itself, but high school is not the place for a statement like that.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone taking part in this discussion got back to the point of why these kids are in school. It is to learn that which is required of them to graduate. This girl's button takes away from the focus on learning and education that is related to graduating from high school. It is a distraction, no matter what the motives and all the other discussion going on here. The school should have taken action simply on the basis of it being a distraction from education...which is why the kids are there. AND...they should have taken action way before two weeks!

Non-Sequitor? Hole Crew? What would that be; "two thumbs and eight fingers?"

"Ignorant blather. First of all, my comments are not the reason women are abused. If you beleive such drivel...well, THAT is probably the reason women are abused. Because idiots like yourself think the problem is that too many people are allowed to have opinions. Most likely, that's what the wifebeaters think too."

Sounds like you would be a good wife beater. So tell us why you think it's inappropriate for Carrie to wear the button.

Other than "I don't agree with her" give a reason that makes sense and back it up with a logical explanation. The reason she gave for wearing the button was straight forward enough and I never said anything about penis or vagina being a curse word, slang or dirty. My comment was in regard to you request; "please caress my penis." Take your comment and make a legitimate argument for this being appropriate in a public setting. Most of what you have written so far is irrevelant so try another approach. Yes, I agree with you, it was ignorant blather.

No you didn't, you stupid ass, TOM DID ( I say for the SECOND TIME ). Why don't you try to read, and maybe you'll understand the context of my remarks. Or don't. You can just keep blathering on like an idiot. That works for me too.

""Neither phrase (As Tom pointed out with the first) has any slang or curse words or derogatory terms in it. That doesn't mean anything however. Something that is not dirty in one setting, becomes dirty in another setting. ***That is what I was trying to illustrate.***

So, Sooooo, true and my point exactly, and the reason for my post. I do read, and quite well I might add. What you try to illustrate falls flat. Anyone can say; "I disagree!" Make a point that is revelant, rather than four or five pages of hypothetical rant.

You're appoaching your meltdown...fraying around the edges and name calling....

You just said my comment was

'sooooo, true and my point exactly, and the reason for my post'

and then said

'what you try to illustrate falls flat'

and

'make a point that is relevant, rather than four or five pages of hypothetical rant'.

I'M approaching a meltdown?

And we all wonder why society on the whole is a sh*t bag. To think that this pubecent puke, who obviously has parents who are proud of their daughter's proclamation of her love for her vagina, can receive the national attention she is receiving only helps to encourage her delusion that anyone gives a rat's ass. When miss vagina lover leaves the comforts of home the struggles of daily life will give her a giant sized smack upside her vacant noggin. If anything I would hold her parent's to task in their inability to teach their child respect.