i listen to loud hip hop sometimes. am i a thug?

you fit the profile.

also- "Lou, I'm sorry words have been put in your mouth before, but like Aaron says 'You don't like it, get the fuck out.'" so, it's okay to misquote people as long as it's not done to you? real noble, buddy.

I know there is a stereotype that blacks have huge dongs but calling something that fits around your head a condom... thats just wishful thinking.

P.s. they do have a function, they are worn so you dont mess up new cornrows or other hairstyles, the condom thing is just a coincidence.

Ah yes your one non-white friend is an Indian, I was going to put that down as a possibility but I figured since they tend to look like Muslims they would probably be ruled out in your book.

BTW you can stereotype all blacks speaking Ebonics as thugs, but I get to Sterotype all those with a Southern Accent as Dumb.

Tyler: I honestly blame parenting. Parents who have been in such neighborhoods all their lives don't necessarily have the kid raising capacity that they should. As for the chance to better oneself, I'm going to have to disagree. I go to the best high school in town and get A's and B's in all my classes. I have a 3.6 GPA and have gotten accepted to two colleges so far, one of which is willing to give me 13k to attend. I can't get a job. I tried last summer and will no doubt try again this summer, but I have been denied a job in this town. It would be even more difficult for a teenager who doesn't do as well as I do to get a job, especially if they were forced out of high school to support their family (yes, it does happen). I guess I just see too much of a problem with the system to believe that it is the black community's fault that things are the way they are. The whole cannot be judged by the few and all that jazz.

Also, I know many blacks who wear those so-called "condoms" and listen to hip-hop who go to my school and are far from thugs. It's a generalization I find to be typically untrue in my experience.

Go for it, i don't have a southern accent. And i'm sure people who speak with a southern brogue get stereotyped as unintellegent, just as blacks speaking ebo get stereotyped.

I dont care if it the CONDOM is necessary to keep a haircut, it looks like a condom, so i'll call it a condom. They also come in different colors, they dont need white.

Lou, i dont believe you have been misquoted; every once in a while words are put in peoples mouth's, that happens.

You may listen to hip-hop, but do you speak unintelligibly and wear a condom on your head? If so then at first glance, i would think of you as a thug.

PS-I work with two blacks and a mexican, and i dont conflict with them at all. Am i still a racist?

Yes, at the very least you come off as one.

I had the same hard time finding a job the last few summers. I bet if we were black we would have been affirmative actioned into one job or another. I continually see blacks hold on to jobs even though they don't deserve them. I work in a predominately black field, and most of the workers have criminal records (including felonies), then they screw up at work and aren't penalized. Both of the black workers i work with have been written up for various reasons at least five times each; yet they still have jobs.

and if it were you Tyler, or me, another white boy, we'd be out of a job...

I know I'd be at Harvard's Garduate School of Design (architecture) if I was black. I had too good a record to not have been accepted, but not good enough for a white male american.

Regarding the past few summers--there's been a slim labor market for teens. One of the major papers reported it (the Globe I think? I don't have time to Lexis-Nexis it right now). A lot of places have been looking to hire people for more than a season (more ;ong term). That's what I had heard as a college student.

Katie--as silly as it sounds, your GPA may deter some employers, as you may come accross as being too smart. I kid you not. Some managers are afraid that an employee (based on their grades) may be smarter than them.

As for the whole debate about a do-rag/Condom--who cares? Some people wear 'em for reasons (like UY pointed out) and others simply wear 'em for style. Does it really make a difference either way?

Aaron maybe if you were born poor and actually had to work for something in your life you would have gotten in. But keep wallowing in self pity I love hearing how oppressed upper middle class white males are.

jaws- no, the rag thing does not make a difference, nor does it make one who wears a rag a thug. and, you're right about the gpa thing. my sister had trouble getting into law school with a 4.0 for high school and college. i kid you not. their reasoning is that a c student has the ability to 'think outside the box,' but she doesn't, since she knows the text so well. if only she were black, right aaron? i wouldn't be shocked if the same was true about teenagers and jobs.

Yes, UY, we are oppressed. this suffocating oppression is making it hard for us to get in touch with our congressman, whom we all know from the country club; and our small-town suburban sheriff won't go bowling with us anymore.

/sarcasm

The fact is, whites are given more leeway with authority figures and blacks are given more oppurtunity to move up the social ladder. I am mad, because i dont want leeway with authority figures, i dont plan on breaking the law. I want to move up the social ranks.

oh, the blatant stupidity of it all! blaming your problems and shortcomings on the black community is racism. oh, because of affirmative action, i didn't get into such-and-such a college, or, because of affirmative action, i didn't get such-and-such a job. i say "phooey" to that!

now, i'm not a fan of affirmative action myself; i would prefer everyone to be blind to race and not even use it as a factor for judging someone, but, as you have proven, that isn't, nor will it soon be, the case.

affirmative action is really just another bunch of laws passed by white guys who think that they know what the black community needs. here's a brief history for you, since you probably haven't looked it up: j.f.k.'s executive order 10925 established the president's committee on equal employment opportunity. the order required that all federal contractors will pledge to not discriminate against any employee or applicant based on race, creed, color, or national origin. john f. kennedy was pretty damn white, if you ask me... he meant well with this order, though, i'm sure. his goal certainly wasn't bitter white people like yourselves (aaron and tyler), but equal opportunity in employment. the civil rights act of 1964 reinforced kennedy's executive order. it stated that "no person in the united states shall be subjected to discrimination due to race, color, creed, or national origin under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance". lyndon b. johnson issued executive order 11246, which stated that "it is the policy of the government of the united states to provide equal opportunity for all qualified persons, prohibit discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color or national origin, and to promote the full realization of equal employment opportunity through a positive, continuing program in each department and agency". pardon me, but isn't lyndon b. johnson also white, or is that just me? johnson proved to be a bit of a hypocrite, though, because he abolished the committee on equal employment opportunity. it wasn't until the nixon administration that affirmative action was truly put into place. in 1971, the department of labor issued revised order no. 4, which required all contractors to develop "an acceptable affirmative action program". what? richard nixon is responsible for all of this? well, hmm... last time i checked, good ol' nixon was white too! so, if you please, stop blaming affirmative action on black people, because, obviously, the blame should be put on a bunch of white guys.

blaming your personal problems on "that elusive black person" is the very essence of racism, and anyone who does so is in dire need of being educated. allow me to pose a few innocent questions: aaron, tyler... how do you know that you lost your job and/or position at school to a black person? what proof do you have? if you have no proof, random speculation isn't justified, so you should just drop the whining about how black people are taking all your jobs and are filling up your schools (a black person wants to go to school? or work? horror of horrors!). get over yourselves. who knows? maybe some qualified white person beat you out! i know that's hard to grasp, but it could be true! consider this: our wonderful ancestors paid to have black people brought to america; they were crowded into ships with barely enough room to breathe, let alone sleep or urinate. they were brought over to our country to work for no more than what little shelter their very well-off white owners would give them. many of them were constantly diseased. many of them were beaten. some of them died of starvation and over-exertion. many black women were used as whores by their white masters, and their half-white, half-black bastard children were sold into slavery for profit after they were born (up until a certain point in history). since you obviously believe in revenge, being in full support of things like capital punishment, which operate on that principle, i would say that what would be fair would be to chain up you and all of your white friends, march them into some creaking, unstable barracks, let you live in your own squalor and filth, only feed you when it is apparent that you're too weak to work, and whip you as you go about the tedious task of picking cotton for some rich black folks.

yeah, that would be about square.

don't you know why white people in this country were so afraid to grant their black slaves' freedom? it wasn't because they were COMPLETELY racist and evil: no! it was because they were afraid that their black slaves would exact much-deserved revenge upon them.

now, pardon me, but i'm not in shackles, and neither are you. and i've never seen a cotton plant in my life. and my house is pretty damn nice. i've been educated. it doesn't look like the ire-filled black folks are gonna kill us after all, does it? even with affirmative action in place, the white average joe is generally better off than the black average joe to this day.

having said all that, even if you lost your job or position at your school to a black person, which is a very questionable assertion in itself, you don't seem to be in dire straights because of it.

i agree that affirmative action is dumb, but, when you think about it, it isn't completely unwarranted, and those who devised it meant well by it, even though they were WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE.

pardon me...

*coughWHITEcough*

without getting into a lengthy rant on why affirmative action is racist (which I may do later), I will say this, Affirmative Action was appropriate in this country in the era of the civil rights movement. However, today, there is no need. Today, the opportunity is there for those who WANT it.

My distaste for AA is not about who brought this racist legislation into reality, but the fact that if admissions/jobs were based on, as you said, "i would prefer everyone to be blind to race and not even use it as a factor for judging someone," I would have been admitted to a better graduate school. Fact remains, the two schools I applied to, MIT & Harvard are infamous for their AA programs. Essentially, WMAs need not apply.

Yall are funny. Hey Lou...I think much the same way as Tyler (and I KNOW Tyler in-person), does this make me a racist as well? Wanna see a picture I carry around just for people like you? Couple of black guys, couple of Hispanics, a Filipino, and a handful of southern white guys...and me amongst the group. I would have gladly given my life for any one of them regardless of race, they were my infantry squad-mates. Now, for my 1 black, 3 Hispanic, 1 Chinese friend...and all of my white friends...I would give my life for theirs if the situation warranted it (black thug wearing a CONDOM on his head and flashin' his "9")...am I still a racist? I still believe in much of what Tyler has said...and you can leave the "middle-upper class" crap at the door (I'm 100% military..born and raised).

I'm what's called a PUNKist. I hate all punks equally, without regard to race. Black, white, Hispanic...I don't care..you dress/act/talk like a punk and I go to level orange when I'm near you. Not all punks have assaulted/harassed/robbed me, but all the times I've been assaulted/harassed/robbed it's been by a punk...actually it's been a black punk. Gotta love the Orange Line through Roxbury.

On-topic, if the parents actually gave a shit about their kids education, they'd make sure they were doing their homework and stop blaming their situation on others...young punks and future punks hang out near the projects by my apartment all night...NOT doing their homework because parents don't give a shit about their own kids education.

Tyler's just pointing out that there's FINALLY some black leaders that aren't race-pimps like JJ and his rainbow gang. There's FINALLY

so, aaron and tyler, your mad because you cant get into the schools of your choice and cant get a job? well if it were not for guys like you who are stereotypical and will not let blacks or any other minority into a particular position because of race, than there would be no need for affirmative action. But affirmative action is in effect because indeed blacks are oppressed and would not stand a chance of getting a job if put against a white person who is just as qualified as the black person, simply because the employer feels that the white person is going to do better. So until employers (who share the same views as you two) can get their act together and hire who is truly qualified (white guy or black guy). and until oppression as a whole can cease to exist then affirmative action will still be present.

I think what it all comes down to, is that you are mad because you don’t want to see black people succeed in anything. Some of you upper class white people act like you always need to run shit around here, and if anything wavers from that, then there is a problem. It would just kill you to see a black person beat you out head to head at something (such as getting into school or being hired when applying for a job), and once something like that happens you want to bitch about it and say blacks have no common sense, and say the only reason that a black person got the position is because of affirmative action. It sounds like a cop out to me. And how do you even know that the reason you did not get into school/ work was because of a black person, and the use of affirmative action? You don’t, which is more proof that you two are racists and are so quick to blame blacks for you problems.

You just love putting words into people's mouths. You wrongfully assume that we are racist, simply because we would love for admissions and job opportunities be based purely on merit.

Now, being an anti-AA person, I believe that people can strive for success on their own, without any help.

You, apparently Pro-AA, alleged believe that certain people need help to get into certain schools, whether it is because they are smart enough, or don't work hard enough, whatever your reason is.

So who is the racist? The person who believes everyone can make it by themselves, or the person who believes certain groups of people are challenged and can't do it by themselves. I would contend that you are the racist bigot.

Aaron you are a racist and a anti-semite.

Anti-semite huh?

I'm reciting my Chanukkah blessings every night and you call me an anti-semite?? you are so stupid.

Anyone who believes in "Palestine" is an anti-semite.

Guess what? No one is racist! Bet that didn't cross anyone's mind, did it? Yes, Aaron, Tyler, Sarge, your opinions differ from mine and do have aspects of them that seem racist, but I believe in the good will of the average human being, so I imagine you're only trying to protect yourself from possibility by being paranoid and I accept that. I'm the same damn way. I walked by this black kid that used to go to my school that beat this shit out of this other kid in the mall and I'm hiding behind my much larger than myself boyfriend because he just might turn on me in the middle of Electronics Boutique. I understand paranoia. However, I don't think affirmative action is racist. It isn't saying that blacks need help because they aren't capable, it's saying that they need help because some whites are ... what's that word we love so much around here? Oh yeah. Bigoted. I'm not saying that the bigots are you, I'm not saying that there aren't black bigots, but there are many white employers who would much rather have a white man who is slightly less qualified working for them than a black man who is over-qualified. It's just the way it is. And as twb said, until that ceases to exist, affirmative action will still be considered necessary no matter how stupid some of us (myself included) think it is. You're just going to have to live with it.

Aaron....anti-semite...now THAT'S funny.

um...yeah

Yes, Sarge, I hate myself, apparently. I want to kill myself, apparently.

Amazing isn't it?

i love placing words in peoples mouths? well then looks like you do the same, how the fuck could i be racist against my own race? i never said that blacks were not capable of succeeding, i said that we are OPPRESSED by you I do not feel that affirmative action is needed on our part, but it is on your part because you are stereotypical of the black race, as are many employers.

...how the fuck could i be racist against my own race? Take JJ and the Rainbow crew...I call his views of black people being victims entitled to payouts racism against his own race.

You will be oppressed until you decide it is not true. Black people will be oppressed as long as JJ is around to tell you how it is. JJ needs you to feel oppressed...or he's out of his shakedown profession. Black families will have uneducated children as long as they don't care about ensuring their kids do their homework....NOT entrusting the "state" to make sure it happens.

Whether you may feel AA is good or not, AA IS racism...period. Hiring based on race is racism...period.

Aaron, you hate Arabs, the Arabs are a Semitic people. Anti-Semite.

it looks like the real issue here is reading comprehension, i NEVER said that i agree with hiring because of race, what i said is that as long as people continue to feel it is ok to stereotype one another, then there will seem to be a need for affirmative action. I also said that affirmative action was not needed on out part meaning that black people do not need affirmative action because we are pretty damn well capable of getting a job on out own, but affirmative action is needed on the stereotypical white part because there are many bigots out there (and I am NOT one of them Aaron) and they will continue to give a white person a chance over a black person, keeping blacks unemployed because the employer decided to hire the white person over the black person, that my friend is oppression, and it is still going on, and until it stops, affirmative action will seem to be needed, but the real problem is not the ability of blacks, but the incapability of stereotypical employers to think equally.

and i do not "feel" oppressed because Jessie Jackson "said" blacks were. i can think for myself thank you, and you would never know what how it is to be black unless you really were. And yes we are highly stereotyped, and I say this because I have whitened it, (not because I have been told to believe it is a fact) and you must be blind because your friend Tyler is the perfect example of a stereotypical person if you ask me.

twb, affirmative action is, by definition, employment based on race. You can't be for one and against the other.

Isn't it a little, well, racist to conceive of the stereotypical white person? I shudder at what the response would be if I said something beginning with, "the stereotypical black male..." yet it's perfectly acceptable to put all white employers together as racists who need laws to compel them to hire minorities.

Do you think that whites are the only ones who discriminate? And do you think blacks are the only ones who are ever discriminated against?

And please, can we use that "r" word a little more sparingly? Not all Republicans (or conservatives, if you will) are racist, and not everyone who is against affirmative action is racist either.

and one more thing, i am the oldest of three black kids, i am in school my parents make sure we do our homework and they teach us that nothing comes easy, and everything we get (in the real world) we work for, no one is going to hand it to us. they don’t depend on the state to do that, so it looks like you are stereotyping me, and my family thanks a lot...

marie, let me clarify myself, when i say "the stereotypical white employer" i mean the ones that are stereotypical i am not saying that all employers are white, I am not saying that all employers are stereotypical, i would never say anteing racist toward any race and if you knew me you would see that as true but you don’t know me so i guess i have to clearly spell everything out for everyone to understand. and to answer your questions no i dont think whites are the only ones who discriminate, and no we are not the only ones who are discriminated against, and please dont try to say that i feel that way. i am sorry for the misunderstanding. And I am sorry for the way I must have come off, I do see where you are coming from.

"there are no bigoted blacks" HA!! so the Black Panthers aren't bigoted? thats like saying the kkk is all for racial equality.

I'll explain why AA is insulting (paraphrasing patrice o'neal). Me and you (twb...) are playing one-on-one basketball, i continually beat you. you just can't win. Then we start playing by giving you 10 of 21 points needed to win. Then you still keep losing. This is good metaphor. The blacks kept losing (slavery, jim crow...) then you are given an extra boost (AA under nixon) and you still have yet to climb the social ladder.

This says a lot about blacks' (a generalization, not to mean ALL blacks) work ethic.

Also, blacks still have yet to climb the social ladder in the north, where Jim Crow was almost non-existant.

Blacks have still only shown success in the fields of athletics and entertainment.

This isn't to say that blacks are inferior in any way, they just by into JJ's lie about oppression and give up on life.

I live in NY and there are black teachers/proffesors/doctors. You are an ignorant shitheel arent you tyler? Hopefully when you will get to college you will realise theres more to African-American culture and life then do rags and rap.

TWB... i sincerely doubt black people are as "oppressed" as you would like to think. Granted, I'm not black, and don't know what it is liek to be black, but here is what i know: Black people can run for office, run for president and be on the supreme court. They are not that oppressed. So quit crying to me "oh, we're so oppressed..." It's a bunch of bullshit.

Black people have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. If you have to work hard to get them, so what? Big deal. Work harder. I've had to work hard to get where I am today, without any hand-outs or push-alongs.

Affirmative Action is racist. If you call me a racist for that belief, you are a racist. I stongly stand by this belief. I have nothing against black people, only the one who think that I owe all black people some form of debt for prejudices and slavery.

As God as my witness, I will NEVER EVER EVER EVER pay one fucking cent for reparations, and I will always vote for politicians who I believe will try to rid the US of Affirmative Action.

Go ahead call me racist. See if I care. The people that know me know that it wrong.

Katie, i enjoyed you little schpiel, and i agree. Every single slave owner should go through that punishment, and every single former slave should have the priviledge of watching that and reiceve all the reperations they want. But seeing as though there are no more slaves or slave owners, that will not happen. also, you can't make every white person go through that because the the world would stand still. As i said before, blacks are only dominant in athletics and entertainment (UY, i'll get to your comment), they wouldn't be able to make the world progress.

UY, Yes, there are black doctors and teachers etc. But how many blacks own there own practices? I bet the number perils in compare to white owners. I have worked with two law firms; one doesn't have any black employees, the other (which has well over 1000 attorneys) has VERY VERY few black lawyers. I stand by my comment.

Aaron- just to let you know, i am no racist, so dont try to call me one. and i do not think that we are as oppressed i may sound when i say it, or as oppressed as blacks used to be, but you can not deny that some of it still goes on today... and if you read my prior comments you will see that i said there really is no need for affirmative action but if prejudice continues then it will seem as if it is needed. And I do not ask for reparations

and as for this comment by you goes:

“Black people have access to the same opportunities as everyone else. If you have to work hard to get them, so what? Big deal. Work harder. I've had to work hard to get where I am today, without any hand-outs or push-alongs.”

why would you admit that i would have to work harder if you dont feel that there is at least some oppression going on? and second, your push up is your skin color.

Tyler- when did I say that there are no bigoted blacks? I don’t recall. But I do recall this:

“no i dont think whites are the only ones who discriminate, and no we are not the only ones who are discriminated against”

as for black work ethic? I get A’s and B’s in school, (I am on my way to college I am not some elementary school kid) and I would say that my family would be a good example of good work ethics as well, we live in a very nice house and have good lives, we don’t sit on our asses and wait for someone to guide us to success. I don’t see having a nice house and getting good grades in school part of entertainment and athletics, I call that social success and I know plenty more black families who are successful, as well as professors doctors ect. So don’t try to say that we are only good for sports and entertainment. And even though we may not dominate in many fields, it is still wrong to say that we are only good for entertainment and sports, black people are capable of far more than that.

There are less Balck Doctors and Lawyers because there are less black people in general, where exactly do you live anyway? I live on Long Island and go to school in NYC there are plenty of successful blacks.

BTW Aaron I was kinda in the middle of the road about Reparations but you swayed me I am now 100% for them. As Tyler would say there arent that many black people on wall street, the thing you forget is that blacks built the wall.

BTW twb, dont even bother, Tyler and Aaron dont have a black friend between them. They base their opinions on what Rush tells them and their own asinine prejudices.

Um Yeah, you are too foolish to make such silly comments as you have just made. do have black acquaintances, some I would call friends. But, as you said, there are less black people than white, and in my professional circle (Architecture/AEC) the field is predominantly white male, though I deal plenty with minority consultants. I have yet to meet a black architect, though I am sure there must be some around. I've had classes in both undergrad and grad level, with a small amount of black students, and have been quite friendly with them. So before you go off and say I don't have black friends, why don't you just ask? You don't have to make yourself look like an ass, although I'm sure you will say I'm lying or something to try to strengthen your point.

BTW, if I could listen to Rush, I would, but because I work full time for a guy who won't let me wear head phones, I only get to listen to Laura Ingraham, Michael Savage and Sean Hannity.

Aaron, it looks like seeing is believing in your case, if you dont see something and actually whitens it, then it is not true? who cares if you are yet to see a lot of successful black people, there are many out there, i will not sit up here an call you a racist, I don’t feel that you are, but i will say that you are blind to what the black community is like, and you only go off of what you see in your personal life, also i dont count acquaintances as friends, a friend is someone you associate your self with, hang out with and confide in, and if you really had black friends you maybe would be able to see things through the black perspective...and no “Um Yeah” is not a fool. (umm yeah thanks for backing me up)

No problem, BTW the University I go to has to be one of the most integrated ever, its like a human rainbow its beatiful brings a tear to my eye.... sob

I never said there are not successful black people. There certainly are, I just have yet to see any in my field here in Boston. I'm not doubting it.

http://blackarch.uc.edu/directory/daaa-list.php?letter=A&type=1

Sweet, the first one is from Boston.

That good... I knew they were out there... I never doubted that.

Marion, you are queen of blatant stupidity.

If you agre that Affirmative Action is in your words, "dumb," than why are you criticizing those of us who are denouncing it?

There is absolutely no need for AA today. The way we can solve the problem is not making it an issue, by removing it from the list of questions applicants must answer. It's so simple.

I have had enough of this shit that blacks are "oppressed" and that since there is still racism that AA is still necessary, though not needed, or some shit like that. There are many, many examples of black people succeeding, which proves it can be done. Sure, kids in nner cities, and who are poor have a harder time at achieving this, but you know, poverty is not limited minorities.

so Marion, you can enjoy the security blanket of yours that you call Canada, and be blinded by political correctness and tolerance, perhaps someday you have the chutzpah to admit we here at Pardon My English are correct. But hey, you can live in your dream world as long as you want, when you are ready to wake up and smell the coffee, you know the URL.

Aaron, there will come a time when AA is no longer needed, but that time is not now hopefully in a generation or so. BTW I know more than a few kids (Some of whom I have grown up with) who would more than likely be in jail by now if they were black or lived in a rougher neighborhood. Such is the reality.

before marion commented, the pme arguments appeared to be in favor of AA.

"Michelle, good points, but i disagree with your statement that blacks are oppressed. Blacks aren't oppressed, many have a chance to succeed in the real world. Affirmative action has been used in the work force and school admissions departments since the civil rights movement (in the north at least), but many blacks choose not to use these services."

one of many examples. guys- don't say you're not a racist and say that they only excell in atheletics and entertainment. and, counting the number of black people you know is not an adequate way of reassuring yourself that you're not a bigot.

twb was right, until you're a minority yourself, you cannot possibly fathom what it is like to be one.

sarge- this really has nothing to do with the discussion, but i just plain don't like you. i sincerely doubt that black people wearing condoms and waving around guns is a common occurence around you. that is, unless you're with all your military buddies. oh the military. you know who joins the military? people who are too stupid to get into college, and people who want to conform. you sound like you fit into both categories. what an untidy group of little facsists. by the way, is it statements like that which make me a punk? if so, then, yes, i'm a punk. and pretty fucking happy to be one.

wow, i have catching up to do.

TWB...i didn't say you siad there are no bigoted blacks, that was aimed at Katie's comment of which i misread; sorry Katie.

I also said that my comment about blacks' work ethic is a generalization. Where did i "say that [blacks] are only good for sports and entertainment"? What i did say is "Blacks have still only shown success in the fields of athletics and entertainment." I know there are black lawyers and doctors, i was saying that there arent many, even percentage wise.

i'm gotta leave work, i'll get back to this.

Lou, do you know what a fascist is? If so, explain how we qualify.

A Fascist is an extreme Conservative, who says things "Like Liberalism must be destroyed no matter what". Oh and Fascist tend to be socially conservative as well, like homophobic bigots etc.

Hey lou...oh the military. you know who joins the military? people who are too stupid to get into college, and people who want to conform.

Wrong again...I passed up my scholarships...spent 6 years on active and THEN went to college...oh darn, majored in biology (that's the study of living things, for idiots like you) and specialized in immunology (that's the study of how your immune system works)....oops, I'm actually part of a team of stupid people that are currently finding treatments to funky diseases. BTW, you know them military officers...they have college degrees,

Um Yeah, you can't redefine nasty words to icorrectly label those you detest.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/john/compassion.php fascism is to the left, as fight terror is to the right.

Fascism is a Right Wing Ideology, sorry.

Im sorry Aaron, But I have studied Fascism and its tenets and concepts a lot, the word of a known idiot will not prove diddly.

oh, and your links to other people's blogs prove that Ann Coulter lies? you are so bigoted against conservatives it is disgusting

Well Aaron the difference is, I read your link, what the dumbass in question is trying to say is that welfare is fascism, sorry if I dont buy that particular line of BS. And anyway my links while biased were not as biased as "Right Wing News" and anyway at least the people in my links used facts.

Aaron stop saying I am bigoted against conservatives you mewling spinless piece of crap, I am not very fond of the most extreme of them and I dont like Shrub, I do not post drivel like "Conservatism must be destroyed" or write books like "Fighting Evil, Bringing the war to terrorism despotism and Conservatism".

Fascism is a Right Wing Ideology, sorry. and But I have studied Fascism and its tenets and concepts a lot shows that either you were not paying attention in your polisci classes, were told a bunch of lies by a buncha liberal "educators", or just want to spew bad labels at those you don't like...if you've actually studied Fasicsm and its tenets and concepts then you'd understand that it has nothing to do with what you might think is "Right Wing Idiology".

To label me (us) fascists...you're saying that we subscribe to the tenets of fascism...now let's look into that one...ahem: In order to be properly labelled as FASCISTS, we "right-wingers" must believe in a ONE-PARTY system of government (nope) in which the individual is subordinated to the state (nope) and control is maintained by military force (nope), secret police (nope), rigid censorship (nope), and the governmental regulation of industry and finance (nope).....and I have not seen any "right-wingers" here that support any of that. Now, I may be using the proper definition of fascism and not the twisted version you were taught, but that's YOUR problem.

Now, would choose to redefine any other nasty labels you want to use on right wingers...Nazi perhaps? dumb-ass

Sarge I didnt label you Fascists, I did say you guys come awfully close when you write shit like "Liberalism must be destroyed" and books like Hannitys later crapfest.

When I said extreme i meant extreme, you guys maybe hardcore conservatives but you arent yet... but you cannot handle civil debate you try to demonize your opponents and yes you believe in homeland security and destroying the the cds and stuff of people you dont like.

these last two comments were interesting. 1) Lou calls us fascists 2) i asked lou to explain how we qualify 3) um yeah said why he thought we qualify 4) sarge explains why we aren't 5) um yeah focuses on semantics of not quite calling us fascists rather than backing up what he was really saying - "you're all fascists".

Here's what my good freind Noah says about fascism:

1.A. a system of government marked by a totalitarian dictator, socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition, and usually a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. B. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system. 2. Oppressive or dictatorial control.

I dont think we qualify.

I think you guys are closer to fascism than we are.

1.you want a strong national government (which usually leads to a totalitarian dictator) 2.You want government control of economic matters (socioeconomic control) 3.When Lieberman and Zell Miller spoke out in favor of Bush, the DNC stopped showcasing them as speakers (suppression of opposition). 4.Affirmative Action is giving one person a boost simply because of race (racism).

It seems Nationalism is the only you disagree with. hmmm.

Dumbass...Fascism is GOVERNMENTAL censorship. as an end-user (capitalist consumer), I can choose to burn or not burn or not buy or boycott anything I damned well please...and it's still not Fascism.

I can handle civil debate and I don't demonize my opponents...I will, however, call you a dumass when you are one.

As a veteran, I believe in "homeland security" (as in the security of America and Americans comes above the security of all others) and wish they had chosen a different name for it, but just because it has the word "homeland" doesn't mean it relates to the same political system that the other "homeland" had.....and today y'all can call it "PROGRESSIVE", but it's still Communal Socialism and I will always be there to point it out.

I merely mentioned you guys come close on your bad days. Fascism is a Right Wing Ideology so to be more of a Fascist then you I would have to become a Conservative then become even more Conservative than you.

Sarge you are a moron... and you said you have brain damage. Let me explain something to you, when you have rallies to burnstuff jusr because you dont like the persons message or disagree with them it smacks of Fascism and it is within my rights to clal you on it, in this country there is a fine like between the "Government" and the regular joes, Krystalnacht could be defined as done by the party faithful and not be "part" of the government.

Screw the left-wing / right-wing labels, look at the beliefs. The Dem's are much closer point-by-point.

No. I mean unequivocally no way in hell.

Why not? I just gave you four reasons why this is so, refute them.

These are the 4 reasons? give me a fucking break.

1.you want a strong national government (which usually leads to a totalitarian dictator)

Er maybe if Shrub actually cared about limiting the govenment you might have a shot here, but Shrub is the one suspending the Constitution where he sees fit, face it Bush has no principles all he wants is power.

2.You want government control of economic matters (socioeconomic control)

Bush is the one stuffing his cabinet with CEOs, and people in thrall of big buisness.

3.When Lieberman and Zell Miller spoke out in favor of Bush, the DNC stopped showcasing them as speakers (suppression of opposition). Fuck that, its not just a difference of opinion they practically stump for the opposition, meanwhile the harmless Dixe Chicks were getting death threats.

4.Affirmative Action is giving one person a boost simply because of race (racism). Sorry but AA doesnt really count as racism, the only reason why you even care it takes spots away from VIPs Newphews (Which white people are more likely to be)

1.A. a system of government marked by a totalitarian dictator, socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition, and usually a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism

Lol Council of Conservative Citizens and so most of the Republican Party.

B. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system.

Fascists advocate fascism check.

2. Oppressive or dictatorial control.

Unlawful Combatants is a nonsense term Shrub is suspending U.S. Citizens rights.

It amazes me that there are people who've been soooo brainwashed by their professors/teachers that they can't even handle a simple definition of a word. So when conservatives speak their mind in public...it's fascism, just because *morons* like you redefine the term to use as you wish? If your definition of Fascism is "right wing ideology" then it was the right-wing of THAT era...and it doesn't hold true today.

Conservatives...especially the far out wackos..do NOT in any way advocate for totalitarian control of the government, nor militarily enforced coptrol of the people, nor secret police rounding you up for the hell of it... ...and so you say ...but Shrub is the one suspending the Constitution where he sees fit, face it Bush has no principles all he wants is power Need I point out that the Constitution has not been suspended in any way at all..even under the USPA, the feds still have to go through a fed court...and things that you THINK and FEEL about our President don't matter. Bush is stuffing his cabinet with CEO's does not even HINT as governmental control of socio-economics, he's just giving his business buddies a job (something even I will call him on, but is irrelevant to this conversation)...there IS a difference if you care to see it.

So when we were down protesting the Dixie-Twits in Boston, we were being Fascists?...or is it Fascist to say we shouldn't be down there expressing OUR FRIGGIN' FREEDOM OF SPEECH..oh yeah, when we do it ..it's Fascism.

AA, by definition IS racism.

If you even understood the Geneva convention, then you'd know that the rights of a POW are limited to those in uniform..or those displaying rank..that CLEARLY identify themselves as DIFFERENT that the civilain population (which those in the ME that we are combatting don't do)...however, we have treated them very much as POWs, and will hold them until the war is over...very likely a very looooooong time.

...but I'm just a brain-damaged moron...at least I can understand and accept the definition of a word without twisting it to mean what I want it to.

Sarge, you are a useless waste of life, go put a bullet in your fucking head.

Um yeah, histroically speaking as republicans have always been for limited governmen, when it comes to war time, government always expands. This happened during the Civil War, so it is not exclusively a modern recurrence.

Sarge, you are a useless waste of life, go put a bullet in your fucking head. Nice come-back....that's all you got?

Love and tolerance for all evidently, is NOT part of your life......I hope you had a lovely Christmas too. Sounds like someone doesn't like the truth...well, cry home to yo' mama...don't worry, men like me will always be there to protect whiners like you, even when you don't know what a Fascist is...hell at least I know my labels when I use them.

Sarge its no use trying to debate with you, you have the comprehension of a retarded 7 year old. You once compared people criticizing and debunking you to raping women.

Um Yeah, remarks like those you are continuing to use only weaken your arguments, the same way Adolf Dean is making himself look like an ass.

Tone it down a bit, Um Yeah, any more recommendations of putting a bullet in the head of a veteran and you will be banned.

to be fair I only recomended he put the bulllet in his head himself.

UY, you're the fucking waste of life. We have a good, substanative debate and you cry and call people names when you dont have anything else to say. Aaron's right, you destroy your agenda better than we can hope to.

Crybaby, go worship at your shrine of Rush and Ann Coulter, And if Ann Coulter is your idea of a hot babe then you seriously got some kind of Oedipal thing going on.

P.s. you cannot debate with Sarge, among other things besides the brain damage he is a massive whiner and makes the most incredibly bad analogies known to man.

You mean bad analogies like "phat" and "fat"?

"Oedipal thing going on"?!!? I'm not related to Ann Coulter, how can this be an Oedipal thing?

PS- I know who Oedipus is, don't insult me.

At no time has any medical personnel diagnosed me with brain damage...nor have I ever claimed to have brain damage.

Yeah, I'm just a whiner...especially when you can't handle the definiton of a word....and I try not to make analogies, let alone bad ones...I simply point out the truth and the truth handles itself quite nicely.

Whatsamatta....can't find a definition of Fascism that will even remotely support your BS claims?...or is it past your bedtime?

This is hilarious.....in this thread alone...here's what's called intelligent debate by *ahem* someone that wants to debate. ... but you cannot handle civil debate you try to demonize your opponents post 1 actually points out a valid concept of declining crime-rates...post 2 asks Tyler the race-baiting question btw do you have any black friends? post 3 actually supposes the race of tyler's non-black minority friend...like it really matters, but it also was very informative in telling what the condom on the black guys head is actually called (do rag for those that weren't paying attention. Next is the actual funtion of the condom on the head...the fact that Ah yes your one non-white friend is an Indian, I was going to put that down as a possibility but I figured since they tend to look like Muslims they would probably be ruled out in your book Tyler's friend was Indian "of course" (Asian, "light" hispanic, Indain was my next guess). Next Tyler's a racist, but the common defense is the phrase that "at least you come off as racist" without actually just puttin' it on the table. Next is making guesses as to Aaron's class, and the assertion that Aaron hasn't worked for anything. ...and then BAM!!! Aaron you are a racist and a anti-semite. there it is. BAM You are an ignorant shitheel arent you tyler? You're FOR reparations...big shock there. Tyler and Aaron don't make their own conclusions...they just go along with Rush...and their own asinine prejudices. My school's more diverse than your school...it's a rainbow sob.

FINALLY a useful post with a link to a list of black architects...now we're gettin' somewhere. A melow post about AA still being needed now, but maybe for only another generation. Fascism....incorrectly used. Fascism....incorrectly used ...again...even after the proper definition was given. Claiming to have studied fascism (um.....yeah) though STILL use it incorrectly. dumbass mewling spinless piece of crap Once again, we cannot handle debate. Incorrect definition of Fascism...again. moron you have brain damage (which you claim I claimed, but I haven't claimed=LIE) ...and once again incorrectly defining Fascism. Unable to correctly refute Tyler's true definition of Fascism. you are a useless waste of life go put a bullet in your fucking head you have the comprehension of a retarded 7 year old (already got my degree...try again) You once compared people criticizing and debunking you to raping women.(LIE, LIE, LIE) Someone's a crybaby...and I guess it's Tyler (Oeidipal reference...Coulter's in my age range) ...besides the brain damage he is a massive whiner and makes the most incredibly bad analogies known to man.

Just another baseless attack from an maleducated (that's been proven in your inability to accept the true definition of Fascism...probably due to liberal-professor brainwashing).

Full and complete analysis of someone that wants to debate (spew hate labels), yet knows what the CONDOM on the head of a black man is called....but STTILL doesn't know shit about what FASCISM is.

well done Sarge... now let's watch U Yeah call you names in an attempt to belittle your rebuttal.

Sarge you did claim to have brain damage once, it was on the PP dite I will check the archives if you want. I assumed it was true because it would explain so much.

Ann Coulter is like 3 times as old as you and she has the personality of A Dominatrix, I figure you got some kind of mommy love thing going.

I stand by what I said trying to debate with Sarge is useless, he just makes shit up and then claims victory. For proof I will remind him of our "debate" on Moral Relavancy he claimed it was "Claiming to be part pregnant" and when I tried to explain to him what it actually was he would not listen, repeating moral relavancy is like claiming to be part pregnant line. As for his horrible analogies, he once compared people criticising him to women getting raped, and theres a few other sharp ones. Plus he is a liar I will get proof if he doesnt want to retract.

stand by what I said trying to debate with Sarge is useless, he just makes shit up and then claims victory. Gee... that is exactly what you are doing.

Not at all. If you are reffering to the Ann Coulter thing I did prove she lies, your head is so far up Hannitys Ass you wouldnt accept the truth, face it either she is a liar or incredibly dumb/incompetent.

Um Yeah, i told you, no more stupid shit about how you didn't prove Ann Coulter lies. Please, drop it. I've had it with your pointless attempt to prove Ann Coulter lies, because you have not. any more of that pointless argument will be deleted.

What the hell is the PP dite? I don't speak freaky-deaky Dutch.

...if you haven't noticed, I'm rather new on this here site and you wouldn't really find me in the archives...especially claiming to have brain damage. If you think Ann Coulter is 3X my age...she looks mighty fine for a 96-99 yr. old....you really must mean Tyler. I make shit up (can't "make up" the definition of a word in the real world...only in YOUR world) and claim victory?....you can't claim victory over a liberal unless he's dead...you will never admit that every dictionary and polisci definition of Fascism is against your pathetic "conservatives are fascists" argument. I don't recall ever getting into a debate on "moral relevancy"...but I may have...and I don't ever recall using any pregnant analogies...you got any proof? You're confusing me with someone else, or what? ...and I REALLY don't recall, nor do I think I would ever use an analogy with rape (and I find this idea rude)....you got proof, or are you gonna shut-up on this one....don't bother lookin any further back than 10 days...as I AM new here.

What I really think is that you have me seriously confused with someone else...which wouldn't surprise me.

...but the true definition of Fascism still stands and will always stand.

Sarge, I think the heads of every psychiatrist would explode if they analized this post. It's quite interesting even from my completely amature level of psychiatry.

If you think Um Yeah is being stubborn now, check out this circle-jerk debate. Basically it was a "no you didn't" "yes i did" "no you didn't" ... debate.

Sarge i Said Fascism is an extremely Right Wing System of Government, BTW i meant the Political Puzzle site where for some reason you claimed to have brain damage.

Um yeah, i dont mean to distract you from this pissing match, but i'm going to get back on the topic of fascism. Here's my response to your last substance filled comment.

Shrub is the one suspending the Constitution How so? I know he has the right to suspend Habeus Corpus (through the USPA), but he has yet to use it on an American citizen. Those lousy peices of crap vacationing in the Caribbean on my dime right now, aren't American citizens, the Constitution doesn't apply to them.

Bush is the one stuffing his cabinet with CEOs, and people in thrall of big buisness Yes, so that he can start to privatize some of what the government is controlling. whether you agree with it or not, he is doing what he said he would do in his campaign.

Fuck that, its not just a difference of opinion they practically stump for the opposition, meanwhile the harmless Dixe Chicks were getting death threats. So let me get this straight...By running against Bush, Leiberman is stumping for HIM??? And what the fuck do the Ditsy Twits have to do with the DNC or RNC??

Sorry but AA doesnt really count as racism Yes it does. giving priviledge based solely on race is racism. Would you like me to refer to my friend Noah about racism?

Lol Council of Conservative Citizens and so most of the Republican Party. What the fuck are you trying to say?? seriously, i dont know what this sentence says. punctuation may resolve the problem.

Unlawful Combatants is a nonsense term Shrub is suspending U.S. Citizens rights Who?? name someone.

See? this is how we debate. I give an argument, you respond, i respond...

LMAO....I have no fuckin' clue what the "Political Puzzle" site is and thus have never been there.....you DO have me confused with someone else...mayhaps there is another Sarge out there?....most other places I go by ElectricStrawberry...but felt the need for a change my first day here.

As my grams used to say "Shoot boy...go get me a switch!!"

BTW...Fascism has been correctly defined over and over...as has your claim of Right Wing Ideology...just because you say it is doesn't mean it is. I looked it up on Webster, in an old Funk $ Wagnel's, and in my polisci book and they all said the same thing, which is the opposite of what you claim (BTW none of them even mentioned Right winger ideology, but they did mention socialists).....thus you are wrong, wrong, wrong and should seek the assistance of a non-liberal professor in that rainbow university of yours to straighten you out some.

Please don't confuse me with others in the future.

LOL (at this thread) Thanks RR for this link...

UY,

Looks like you're in top Idiotarian moonbat form, so let me pose this to you, being you're a supporter of AA.

Say you've worked and slaved for this company for several years (overtime, holidays, yada,yada)

An opening comes up in high management due to a retirement. You fit the criteria for the job. This is what you've studied for, what you've sweated blood for. It's come down to you and a another person who happens to be a minority (or a woman). Another hard worker, another asset to the company. (or government job if that what floats your boat)

They give the job to the other person simply because (drum roll) of minority/female gender/ victim status.

You would tell me that there would be NO hard feelings, no resentment, no anger? (especially if you've been in the company longer than said person)

PS everyone: Betting he'll tell us this would NEVER happen in Amerikkka.

UY take off your pajamas (don't rip the feeties) and get ready for school. The Short Bus™ is here for you.

Um Yeah, is a lawyer (like we need another one of those) in training. Over at Misha's site he kept getting his sorry ad hominem attack ass handed to him over and over again and again.

Sarge, over at Political Puzzle there is another poster who goes by the handle Sarge. UY might not know it but there are people who have the same handle as do others out there.

Ignore the troll since he contributes nothing to the argument.

UY, your screeds are tiresome and ridiculous, particularly your definition of Fascism, so spare us your pablum and fledgling political insight. If conservatism supports the status quo and holds the past in deference, reason would prescribe that Fascist ideology would be diametrically opposed to the continuity with the past that conservatism demands. After all, Mussolini's dream was that of a Third Rome, the Italy of the future and a society that casts off the mold of previous societies. Similarly, Hitler's Third Reich was also oriented towards the future. Please, tell us where these futuristic visions fit in with conservative ideology. And if you still don't get it, this will help:

Five Facts about Fascism

Over the last 30 years, scholarship has gradually begun to bring us a more accurate appreciation of what Fascism was. (20) The picture that emerges from ongoing research into the origins of Fascism is not yet entirely clear, but it's clear enough to show that the truth cannot be reconciled with the conventional view. We can highlight some of the unsettling conclusions in five facts:

Fascism was a doctrine well elaborated years before it was named. The core of the Fascist movement launched officially in the Piazza San Sepolcro on 23rd March 1919 was an intellectual and organizational tradition called "national syndicalism."

As an intellectual edifice, Fascism was mostly in place by about 1910. Historically, the taproot of Fascism lies in the 1890s--in the "Crisis of Marxism" and in the interaction of nineteenth-century revolutionary socialism with fin de siècle anti-rationalism and anti-liberalism.

Fascism changed dramatically between 1919 and 1922, and again changed dramatically after 1922. This is what we expect of any ideological movement which comes close to power and then attains it. Bolshevism (renamed Communism in 1920) also changed dramatically, several times over.

Many of the older treatments of Fascism are misleading because they cobble together Fascist pronouncements, almost entirely from after 1922, reflecting the pressures on a broad and flexible political movement solidifying its rule by compromises, and suppose that by this method they can isolate the character and motivation of Fascist ideology. It is as if we were to reconstruct the ideas of Bolshevism by collecting the pronouncements of the Soviet government in 1943, which would lead us to conclude that Marxism owed a lot to Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great.

Fascism was a movement with its roots primarily in the left. Its leaders and initiators were secular-minded, highly progressive intellectuals, hard-headed haters of existing society and especially of its most bourgeois aspects.

There were also non-leftist currents which fed into Fascism; the most prominent was the nationalism of Enrico Corradini. This anti-liberal, anti-democratic movement was preoccupied with building Italy's strength by accelerated industrialization. Though it was considered rightwing at the time, Corradini called himself a socialist, and similar movements in the Third World would later be warmly supported by the left.

Fascism was intellectually sophisticated. Fascist theory was more subtle and more carefully thought out than Communist doctrine. As with Communism, there was a distinction between the theory itself and the "line" designed for a broad public. Fascists drew upon such thinkers as Henri Bergson, William James, Gabriel Tarde, Ludwig Gumplowicz, Vilfredo Pareto, Gustave Le Bon, Georges Sorel, Robert Michels, Gaetano Mosca, Giuseppe Prezzolini, Filippo Marinetti, A.O. Olivetti, Sergio Panunzio, and Giovanni Gentile.

Here we should note a difference between Marxism and Fascism. The leader of a Marxist political movement is always considered by his followers to be a master of theory and a theoretical innovator on the scale of Copernicus. Fascists were less prone to any such delusion. Mussolini was more widely-read than Lenin and a better writer, but Fascist intellectuals did not consider him a major contributor to the body of Fascist theory, more a leader of genius who could distil theory into action.

Fascists were radical modernizers. By temperament they were neither conservative nor reactionary. Fascists despised the status quo and were not attracted by a return to bygone conditions. Even in power, despite all its adaptations to the requirements of the immediate situation, and despite its incorporation of more conservative social elements, Fascism remained a conscious force for modernization. (21)

http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm#n21

Incidentally, those five points were only a small part of the whole article. Read the rest if you wish to challenge your foolish assumptions.

Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah, Shun the UmYeah.

WOW, I think we all were just schooled. Thanks for the re-enforcements Albedo, Kirk, Radical Redneck, and ms Heather. It's good to see some conservatives other than the regulars here.

Huzzah! Albedo that was succinct and eloquent. UY, if you read it four or five times you will see it defines you. This is more fun then a fox hunt. *Mmmmmm... boiled troll...not to eat, but to use as glue./